Looks really good - I look forwards to seeing how it progresses.
Out of interest, what sort of budget do expect the project to come in at.
Out of interest, what sort of budget do expect the project to come in at.
Dining table WIP
- Thread starter danst96
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danst96
Established Member
Thank you.
It's been a while since I got the lumber but I would anticipate somewhere around CA$1700-2000 just for the lumber.
Id value the table around $7-10k if I was paying for it in a shop.
I hope you don't have any issues also. But a glue joint without any tenons or any other form of connectors , albeit, dovetail, etc, and only using glue can be your weak point. Especially with end grain involved. Love the design.
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danst96
Established Member
I have got dominos running the direction indicated on this picture. It's just a glue joint going the other direction.
If that's going to be an issue, I could put some through dowels to add some strength.
What would you do?
I would leave it as it is. Modern glues are very strong. There is a lot to be said for good mechanical joint and all the historical furniture you see with repairs it’s largely in joints where the glue has failed. If you look at test results for modern glues the wood surrounding the joint is usually what hails rather than the mating surfaces. With the housing you have there and the direction the forces are likely to exert I wouldn’t anticipate any issues.
Any progress on your project? I’m starting to think about a table for the future and was noodling on design ideas. In your first post you said this was an extending table. Would you share your design on how the top works?
My top could be c. 3m long and making it in two sections would be a lot easier! An intentional mid length split with an insertable leaf is one possibility.
Fitz
danst96
Established Member
Yes sorry for the slow updates here! Had a brief break as I came back to the UK for a few weeks to visit the family.
However made some progress and also a bit mistake which I'm kicking myself heavily for.
Regarding the extensions, I am using a table extension kit from Lee Valley. I will share some pictures of this in due course, I am getting close to attaching the top.
However made some progress and also a bit mistake which I'm kicking myself heavily for.
Regarding the extensions, I am using a table extension kit from Lee Valley. I will share some pictures of this in due course, I am getting close to attaching the top.
danst96
Established Member
The next stage was the top. I have a fairly old kity 637 and it struggled planing the white oak, had to take 1/2 mm passes at a time to avoid it cutting out. It could be the capacitor is not the right size.
Anyway got the milling done and glued up the top and squared off the ends using a router. Was struggling with the festool track saw, can't take much more than a 8mm pass, the white oak is as hard as nails. With having to take multiple passes it left a messy cut so the router did a nice job at getting a nice square edge.
You will notice as the project goes on my shop gets steadily messier. I really need to give it some attention. I'm one who takes something out and doesn't put it back in the same place after using it. Bad habits die hard.
Anyway got the milling done and glued up the top and squared off the ends using a router. Was struggling with the festool track saw, can't take much more than a 8mm pass, the white oak is as hard as nails. With having to take multiple passes it left a messy cut so the router did a nice job at getting a nice square edge.
You will notice as the project goes on my shop gets steadily messier. I really need to give it some attention. I'm one who takes something out and doesn't put it back in the same place after using it. Bad habits die hard.
danst96
Established Member
Fail number 1.
I am going for a breadboard end however due to time and experience, im not doing a true breadboard, rather using some larger dominoes as the tenons. Please feel free to tell me this won't work, I should maybe have given it some more thought but again I'm putting a lot of faith in a lot of dominos and good glue and I'm willing to see how it goes over time and redo it in a few years if necessary.
Anyway long story short, I thought to help with stability of the top panel as it is quite wide I would include some c channel, again maybe not necessary but I was a bit worried about the movement without a true breadboard and thought this would help.
Anyway I had a fail when routing for this, probably a combination of too small of a router bit and too deep of a pass, it caught at the start of a cut and snapped as it started to kick back which was a wee bit scary. Lesson learned
Second picture of end glue up. Challenging as my clamps are not long enough.
I am going for a breadboard end however due to time and experience, im not doing a true breadboard, rather using some larger dominoes as the tenons. Please feel free to tell me this won't work, I should maybe have given it some more thought but again I'm putting a lot of faith in a lot of dominos and good glue and I'm willing to see how it goes over time and redo it in a few years if necessary.
Anyway long story short, I thought to help with stability of the top panel as it is quite wide I would include some c channel, again maybe not necessary but I was a bit worried about the movement without a true breadboard and thought this would help.
Anyway I had a fail when routing for this, probably a combination of too small of a router bit and too deep of a pass, it caught at the start of a cut and snapped as it started to kick back which was a wee bit scary. Lesson learned
Second picture of end glue up. Challenging as my clamps are not long enough.
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danst96
Established Member
The next stage is shaping the tops. I didn't get many pictures of the process for this but I have gone for a curve to the edge and also a slightly rounded end to give it a bit more visual interest. Achieved using templates and the router.
I'm a "in my head woodworker" and am somewhat making it up as I go along. I have a good plan but it's mostly just pictures, ideas, lots of thinking in the shower and maybe a few hand sketches. This was a good example of making it up as I go and it came out ok in my opinion.
I'm a "in my head woodworker" and am somewhat making it up as I go along. I have a good plan but it's mostly just pictures, ideas, lots of thinking in the shower and maybe a few hand sketches. This was a good example of making it up as I go and it came out ok in my opinion.
danst96
Established Member
That was until disaster struck.
I did have a concern this could happen and thought I'd set the dominos far enough in to avoid exposing one on the edge but nope there is is in all its glory.
I will use the domino and chisels to clean it out and will fill it with hopefully some decent matching bits.
There will be a fairly heavy chamfer on the underside which will draw the edge away from the eye so hoping this will help hide it somewhat.
Will update you all with how it all turns out.
Embarrassing I know.
I did have a concern this could happen and thought I'd set the dominos far enough in to avoid exposing one on the edge but nope there is is in all its glory.
I will use the domino and chisels to clean it out and will fill it with hopefully some decent matching bits.
There will be a fairly heavy chamfer on the underside which will draw the edge away from the eye so hoping this will help hide it somewhat.
Will update you all with how it all turns out.
Embarrassing I know.
Sgian Dubh
Established Member
My only commentary, apart from commiserations concerning the exposed domino, relates to the clamped ends or clamps, or as you call them, breadboard ends. I don't see a problem using domino dowels for the job, so long as they're large ones, e.g., 14 mm thick (which I believe is a standard size) and long enough to penetrate up to 35 - 40 mm into each part. If needed two dominos could be used side by side for increased width of both 'tenon' and the matching mortice. All the dominos would be glued into the end grain of the main panel.
What does concern me rather is that the clamps appear to be glued all across the end grain of the main panel, and I assume (guess?) all the dominos are also glued into both parts, i.e., the main panel and the clamps. This might lead to failure in the main panel in the form of splitting because of restriction to shrinkage.
One normal procedure with clamped ends is for only the central tenon to be glued into the clamp's mortice. All other tenons are drawbored tight to the clamp with a short cross-grain slot cut in the tenon and the mortices in the clamp extended to allow for expansion and contraction of the main panel. Variations of what I've just described exist to hold the clamp tight to the end grain of the main panel. Slainte.
Max Power
Established Member
As said, you have made no provision for the different expansion rates in the directions of the grain. wood expands more across it's width than length, which is likely to cause problems as there could be considerable stress build up between the breadboard end and main top.
If I were you I'd run a saw through them and re-attach with this in mind
If I were you I'd run a saw through them and re-attach with this in mind
As Richard and 'Max' have said your breadboard end is not doing what a breadboard end is designed to do, which is to provide rigidity across the top, prevent cupping of the top, whilst allowing for seasonal movement.
Here's a video about how to use dominos in this application, only thing I would do differently is also glue the centre most domino in to the breadboard end then any movement will be centred around this point, rather than the end potentially walking off to one side over the seasons.
Here's a video about how to use dominos in this application, only thing I would do differently is also glue the centre most domino in to the breadboard end then any movement will be centred around this point, rather than the end potentially walking off to one side over the seasons.
danst96
Established Member
I'm aware hence the additional c channel. I doubled up on the dominos but will watch the video shortly.
I'm referring to it as a faux-breadboard as I am not sure how else to describe it.
Sgian Dubh
Established Member
The c channel is irrelevant to the less than optimal construction of the end clamps, unless you're attaching those c channels in a manner that also prevents cross grain movement, e.g., putting all screws through holes 0.5 mm or so larger than the screw's shank rather than slots in the channel for all but attachment by the central screw.
Your "faux-breadboard" construction is technically problematic and likely to lead to failure in the main panel, such as splitting. I suggest you revisit your options at this point while the project is still under construction and changes or improvements are relatively easy to accomplish. Max Power has suggested one option, i.e., cut the existing clamps off and redo the job making the necessary allowance for cross-grain movement. Done carefully you can reuse the existing clamps (breadboards) and, at worst you might lose 12 - 15 mm of table length. Slainte.
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danst96
Established Member
Yes I see my mistake here. I'm just contemplating the best way to resolve it. Thanks for the heads up everyone!
We live and we learn.
We live and we learn.
Sgian Dubh
Established Member
Making a change to the clamps at this stage would also be an opportunity to get rid of the exposed domino you showed. Assuming it is just at one edge where the mistake shows you could rip off all or some the board at the edge and replace it. If both edges are affected, do both. Slainte.
danst96
Established Member
Hello all, what's your thoughts on the green and Greene inspired screw breadboard end? Do you think this will be suitable in my application, it's the simplest method I have found to rectify it but not sure how it will do over time. I also want to avoid having dowels visible on the table top if at all possible.
Max Power
Established Member
The image above is exactly what you need. Put draw-bored dowels through the tenons,making the centre one a ridgid fit to lock the centre in place and glue that tenon. With the rest of the tenons, elongate the holes for the dowels across the width, to enable the bb end to expand and contract unhindered. Make sure you don't get glue anywhere other than the central tenon and a small dab to keep the dowels in place
