DGlazed windows-what's involved in making and fitting them??

[oddsocks]

My house is now 15years old and the original softwood cheap double gazed units are in need of renovation /replacement (they look to have 6mm sealed units not the modern '4-16-4'). I want hardwood framed units , not uPVC. As usual for this time of year there are plenty of adverts for double glazing, but I have the skills, workshop tools (except spindle moulder if needed but have Trend T11) and confidence to do this myself, (or at least consider it and weigh up the options) but do not have any specific window frame experience hence all my questions below....

I'm looking to copy the current layout of our windows, potentially changing the opening sections if new regs require it
Now for the questions....

• 1- Any door or DVD recommendations that are not US centric text so I can read into the subject- looking on Amazon and in Axminster catalogue has not been good.
  2- Any magazine articles (I subscribe to goodwoodworking and vaguely recall one but the subsriber archive search is useless).
  3- Design - timber frame dimensions, joints (time for a domino or traditional M&T?) what timber and air or kiln dried. The wood will be painted white (probably with dulux trade weathershield)
  4- Materials - where to source the glass sealed units (is 4-16-4 still right), security locking bolts (ESPAS???). It seems there are plenty of suppliers to choose from, so any recommendations and indicative costs.
  5- Building regs / fitting - I'm obviously not FENSA so need to check with the local BC as to what process I need to follow - any ideas and cost??
  6- Removal of old frames - just an alligator type saw?
  7- Fitting of new ones - how tight should the frame be to the hole, what fittings to keep it in place
  8- General security of wooden frames and how to design improvements in?
  9- Effort estimate per typical window (e.g study window approx 51"x45" in three vertical sections, outer two open)
  
  and any other question I forgot to list but your experience means I should have asked!!

Basically if 'Everest fit the best' how close can I get, at what cost and using which suppliers for the raw materials. I'm doing the web browsing and reading plenty of google hits but value the forum advice highest. I've seen the recent projects re windows and will track those with interest, particularly Steve Maskerys comments in a recent one and the pictures using dominos as that looked a lot simpler the M&T, but I will do what is best but longer if there is a clear reason.

Thanks

Dave

 

[Dibs-h]

My house is now 15years old and the original softwood cheap double gazed units are in need of renovation /replacement (they look to have 6mm sealed units not the modern '4-16-4'). I want hardwood framed units , not uPVC. As usual for this time of year there are plenty of adverts for double glazing, but I have the skills, workshop tools (except spindle moulder if needed but have Trend T11) and confidence to do this myself, (or at least consider it and weigh up the options) but do not have any specific window frame experience hence all my questions below....

I'm looking to copy the current layout of our windows, potentially changing the opening sections if new regs require it
Now for the questions....

• 1- Any door or DVD recommendations that are not US centric text so I can read into the subject- looking on Amazon and in Axminster catalogue has not been good.
  2- Any magazine articles (I subscribe to goodwoodworking and vaguely recall one but the subsriber archive search is useless).
  3- Design - timber frame dimensions, joints (time for a domino or traditional M&T?) what timber and air or kiln dried. The wood will be painted white (probably with dulux trade weathershield)
  4- Materials - where to source the glass sealed units (is 4-16-4 still right), security locking bolts (ESPAS???). It seems there are plenty of suppliers to choose from, so any recommendations and indicative costs.
  5- Building regs / fitting - I'm obviously not FENSA so need to check with the local BC as to what process I need to follow - any ideas and cost??
  6- Removal of old frames - just an alligator type saw?
  7- Fitting of new ones - how tight should the frame be to the hole, what fittings to keep it in place
  8- General security of wooden frames and how to design improvements in?
  9- Effort estimate per typical window (e.g study window approx 51"x45" in three vertical sections, outer two open)
  
  and any other question I forgot to list but your experience means I should have asked!!

Basically if 'Everest fit the best' how close can I get, at what cost and using which suppliers for the raw materials. I'm doing the web browsing and reading plenty of google hits but value the forum advice highest. I've seen the recent projects re windows and will track those with interest, particularly Steve Maskerys comments in a recent one and the pictures using dominos as that looked a lot simpler the M&T, but I will do what is best but longer if there is a clear reason.

Thanks

Dave

Dave

1 - don't know - Google Books is a good source, especially the old books. I have a door next on teh list to make.

2 - sorry can't help.

3 - I just used air-dried softwood, as they are in the 'workshop and will be painted white. I'll post up a sketch of the dimensions at some point soon. I could have done it the traditional way, but haven't the time - so went with a domino.

4 - Don't know in your neck of the woods, but I would search Yell for glass merchants and ring round for a nominal 0.5mx0.5m unit and see what the costs are and what lead times are involved. Always worth asking cheekily what the cost is for cash. Locking bolts - I've gone with Maco espags - the more secure versions that have 3 pairs of bolts as opposed to just 2 pairs.

5 - BC - couldn't give a hoots, but as the shop is in progress and subject to checks by the BC officer, suppose it's covered.

6 - removed old frames in the past with a reciprocating saw and brute force.

7 - I've made the current ones 1cm less in width and height than the opening - we'll see how that works. Fixings - expanding bolts, frame fixings - there's loads, take your pick.

8 - security, I don't really have any concerns, espags, good fittings, etc. along with a shock sensor on the frame connected to the alarm and set for double knock. In my case there will be steel shutters of some description behind the windows, although not really suitable for a house. You could use toughened glass on the outer pane and laminated on the inner.

9 - haven't counted the nbr of hours involved in mine - it took far longer as it's the 1st set I've ever made and I had to read up alot on how others had made them, to come up with a design for mine and check everything ten times and do a million test cuts. As these had espags in them - that altered the design slightly.

HIH

Dibs

 

[Steve Maskery]

Dave
Send me an email steveATworkshopessentials.com and I'll send you a useful background reading document.
S

 

[wizer]

Would one of the low end charwood spindle moulders be a help with this job? You could even sell it on at the end of the project and not be much out of pocket?

Just an idea. I'd like to do mine but I've not got the bottle. :lol:

 

[RogerS]

There have been quite a few threads on 'how to make them' bit on here and also over on the other side. So if you need 'how-to's .....

You don't say what the current ones are like..what sort of moulding etc. The hardest part is going to be making the moulding and maybe there is a member near you who can run you off a load of lengths on their spindle moulder?

Building Control do need to be involved unless you want to risk not telling them. But only takes a mean-minded neighbour to snitch.....Check out their website, my local council has a form for windows and a reasonable fee....but do it all at the same time as one fee covers all. They will be/should be interested in:

heat loss - ie type of double glazed units.
how you are planning to replace the windows and not have the walls collapse.
you may have some smaller windows - particularly on the upper floor(s) - depending on the foibles of your BC officer he/she may steer you towards double-openers for fire egress - as it is a replacement you don't have to go along with that if you don't want to

again, depending on the foibles of your BC officer he/she may steer you towards trickle vents. If your original windows had them then you need to include them in your new windows. If not then you don't have to..regardless of what BC may/may not say.

if you go down the 'DIY' moulding route then consider getting a set of cutters made up that cut the putty line. IE..the dgu's are fitted from inside the house not outside. Means no puttying. Instead you have a wooden chamfer that looks like putty. Make up some moulding (or buy them) to pin/glue/your choice on the inside. A mitre cutter/trimmer is a real boon for trimming these.

 

[Chippyjoe]

Hi Dave,

A good place to start would be at your local building control. They will advise you on the regulations that have to be adhered to.eg Toughened glass,mininium opening sizes for any fire escape openings etc etc.

I can tell you that are local building control charge £97-50 inc VAT for a window application.

It all sounds very daunting at first,but it's all pretty staight forward,and you will get plenty of feedback of the forum.

Mark.

 

[JFC]

Means no puttying. Instead you have a wooden chamfer that looks like putty.

Oi , thats my design ! Patt pending :lol:

 

[RogerS]

Means no puttying. Instead you have a wooden chamfer that looks like putty.

Oi , thats my design ! Patt pending :lol:

 

[oddsocks]

Thanks to everyone that's responded - all a great help. I had searched the forums and found partial answers to some of my questions but thought it would be more sensible to group them all (a lot of the other posts were to do with sash windows). I'll take some photos of the current windows at the weekend (daylight needed when I'm at home!).

Chippyjoe - I've just looked on the local (Bury StEdmunds) council website and found the price list - a building notice for replacement windows is £80+VAT and there is no inspection charge.


At the moment I've convinced myself that it's worth doing myself and need to 'gather the ammo' to convince my wife that they would be as secure and efficient as an Everest/Anglian version etc. I've got enough projects on the go for the next few months but hopefully will start this in April/may time.

Wizer - i have thought about getting a spindle moulder if it's needed - I'll have a look a the London wwork show in March (I did look a the Kity one last year but no justifiable reason /funds at the time!)

if you go down the 'DIY' moulding route then consider getting a set of cutters made up that cut the putty line. IE..the dgu's are fitted from inside the house not outside. Means no puttying. Instead you have a wooden chamfer that looks like putty. Make up some moulding (or buy them) to pin/glue/your choice on the inside. A mitre cutter/trimmer is a real boon for trimming these.

Roger /JFC - I think I understand this but do you have a picture showing the 'putty line' cutter

 

[JFC]

Thats the idea , windows and doors are pretty much the same in construction so the threads on sashes will help you . i've just done some doors for good wood working issue 223 that will show more detail on the putty moulding ( patt pending )
As for upvc . I can understand why people go for it and my own property isn't worth the extra cost of solid timber windows .( although i made them 10 years ago and still haven't fitted them ) I do seem to be ripping alot of upvc out on the larger properties though and replacing for solid timber .
The upvc i have taken out i fitted in my workshop and the door has been bumped open . No idea how they did it but they got in . Windows have been pulled until the locks pulled out . So i guess it isn't as good as they say it is . Well not a guess cause the pippers got in !

 

[oddsocks]

Thanks jfc, I get the mag on subscription so will study in detail!

 

[JFC]

If you subscibe to good woodworking you may have the full details on window construction sooner than you think :wink:

 

[Jaybee24]

Hi Oddsocks

If you have never made window frames before and you are thinking of tackling a complete house then irrespective of say furniture making skills you will find you are taking on a hell of a job. If it is just one window frame then go ahead - it sounds like a good project.

I once costed replacing all the windows in the sheds in my garden. I came to the conclusion it would be just about the same cost to go to "Wickes" and buy the frames ready made with the double glazed units already made to fit rather than build from scratch.
Those frames do not need putty just wooden battens that are supplied and cut to size.

If you are determined to go the whole hog do it yourself and use bespoke hardwood then you will need a spindle moulder for the fancy work and you should be cutting Tenons and double laps for the coners - a bandsaw needed here.

Best regards

John...

 

[RogerS]

.......

I once costed replacing all the windows in the sheds in my garden. I came to the conclusion it would be just about the same cost to go to "Wickes" and buy the frames ready made with the double glazed units already made to fit rather than build from scratch.
......
Best regards

John...

Aesthetics come into play. I hate the windows that you get from the sheds. More wood than glass. Awful, non-existent profiles to the mouldings. By making them himself he (a) gets decent looking windows and (b) hopefully enjoyment and a sense of pride

 

[oddsocks]

thanks John / jfc,

I did price up the hardwood frames from an online supplier last year (can't remember the name) and it came to about £3000 including the glass, with the frames preprimed.

All input is good, I'm collecting facts / opinions now, and although I want to make them it may end up being too big a project....but as jfc said, there is the satisfaction aspect and the ability to get it as we want it. My wife likes elements of quite a few house windows in the neighborhood, but bits from quite a few designs, not one design.

There's no real time pressure, the current windows are no where near rotting, but do need full repaint and some sills treating. Last year we had the house cavity walls filled, loft topped and thermostatic rad valves fitted and the next insulation improvement is the windows (and we noticed that in the recent cold snap), so I would like to do them this summer if possible. Maybe it will end up as a long term job ready for next year!

 

[Jaybee24]

@ RogerS

I am not quite sure what your point is Rog. The sheds I referred to were rather nicely built brick affairs with very tastefully designed windows - many an old time architect would have been envious. The wood to glass ratio looked ok to me and nobody ever complained about it. They were not run down wood shacks that adorn many of the houses I have seen in Britain.

As regards the PVC stuff you directed my gaze to - well I am in full agreement I always prefer wood to plastic when it comes to security and keeping warm.

Best regards

John.

 

[RogerS]

Misunderstanding! I thought you meant DIY sheds like B&Poo.

I hate those clunky wooden windows that many people are buying off-the-peg as it were. And as for that sludgy-brown colour....

"Yessir...we treat those windows so you don't need to worry about repainting them for years and years. What's that? They look like cow pats?"

There's a listed building in our village. Black and white beamed and then planning let them stick in those brown windows!

 

[Digit]

According to a DG saleman who tried very hard to sell me some DG windows a few weeks ago if the width of the opening in the brickwork is to remain the same then no Fensa/PP required Dave.

Roy.

 

[RogerS]

According to a DG saleman who tried very hard to sell me some DG windows a few weeks ago if the width of the opening in the brickwork is to remain the same then no Fensa/PP required Dave.

Roy.

That sounds like BS to me.

 

[Digit]

Well he was a salesman! :lol:

Roy.