cutting list

[Streepips]

I have always made out cutting lists manually.......... either as a rough guide or even with graph paper and a scale rule and calculator even........Always manage to squeeze every last bit of useful material out of a piece...........
However, just been trying to get a quote for some acrylic/perspex for glazing a greenhouse.. and what I got to 4 sheets of 3mX2m the supplier got to 6 sheets using cutting list software............
I redrew my cutting list. Still 4 sheets. I then downloaded few freebie cutting list progs, all awful to use and did not make efficient use of the boards.......and not even any grain direction to consider.
Second supplier then responded. Quoted using 4 sheets as the amount required........ Spoke with them and asked what cutting list software they used. " Errr We don`t, we do it manually......
Anyone here that uses cutting list software and ever compared it to a manual calculation?

 

[9fingers]

I used a trial version of SmartCut from Rasterweg

I could not fault the layout and it managed stock and offcuts into the the next job.

As an amateur, I could not justify paying for it for one or two jobs a year so i now use Visio, a 2D M$ drawing package and do it 'by hand'

Bob

 

[Streepips]

I didn`t come across Smartcut, might give that a whirl as well, although like you I think that doing it manually might be the only way to be really sure.

 

[wizer]

I use an App called Optimik, which is free for the first 30 cuts (of any project). It's quirky and you have to spend some time getting your head around it, but it works perfectly well. I'd like a better solution and I have found 30 cuts can be restricting on some projects. But I'm too tight to pay

 

[Shultzy]

I just use sketchup and then orientate and lay all the sheet parts on an 8x4 sheet or a plank for strip wood. Its sort of manual but computerised :lol:

 

[Chems]

I use Culist free and very good. You can manually arrange if you want too.

 

[Streepips]

Cutlist and Optimik are two that I tried. Neither of which gave better esults than I coild get with pencil and paper..... Maybe its me? If so fair enough I at least have some faith with my results if I can double check my own workings.
My experience so far though is that cutting lists derived from software really deserve scrutiny.. so the jobs done twice.... and company A that stated I needed 6 sheets for a job will not get my business whereas company B that worked it out manually got the same result I did.. and at almost half the price of company A.
So guess who gets the order?
Thing is, company A with the software promises to match plus beat by 15% any competitors price.. and I have the quote from company B to do that............Or should I just order from the cheaper manually derived quote and and tell the more expensive quoter that their software is making them uncompetitive?
To be honest, if both had stated that it needed 6 sheets I would have just bought 4 full sheets and cut them myself anyway.....
One thought that occured was that it might be the software setting. I noticed that you could ramp up the optimisation. So it follows that you could also alter other aspects, IR: the cutting time........which would mean fewer cuts per sheet at the expense of the efficiency of the yield per sheet.....
Anyway, I think I will stick to pencil and paper for the foreseeable................

 

[Boz62]

I use the free Cutlist (Windows but works well in Wine under Linux). It does allow for grain direction. Bit clunky. I find it "adequate" but tend to print out then do a bit of further optimisation by hand to suit my own eccentricities...

Boz

 

[oddsocks]

Streepips, I suspect you're right and its the optimisation settings. For example in Optimik you can optimise it to minimum /align cuts horizontally, vertically or not at all. The latter makes full use of the board but would need manual cutting with a jigsaw. Other factors could be the kerf settings set, allowance of damaged edge etc. I have run the same cut list in optimik with the different settings and have had results ranging from 7 to 10 sheets - it all depends on your individual parts and options.

If you have the cut list, PM it and I'll have a go (just out of curiosity). My typical results for the recent projects with over 100 pieces had almost full use of every board except the last one. I have the unlocked version of Optimik so am not limitted to the 30 pieces that Tom is

Dave

 

[mr grimsdale]

I don't think anybody needs a computer to sort out an order of cutting from a cutting list, unless a very complex or large project (perhaps).
You just need to follow the trad rule; cut largest pieces first from smallest piece possible.
So with timber you'd start with the largest section size and longest length and work your way down, looking at offcuts and short lengths of stock to cut up first.
You have to stick to the rule but it can sometimes be counter intuitive e.g. cutting five 2ft lengths from one 10ft length leaves no waste, but may deprive you of the one piece from which you could have cut the 6ft piece you need. If you had cut the 6ft length first this wouldn't have happened.
It works the same with sheet except you have the extra factor of orientation to take into account.
Crops up a lot this question. I can just about do the answer in my sleep!

 

[Lons]

I have always made out cutting lists manually.......... either as a rough guide or even with graph paper and a scale rule and calculator even........Always manage to squeeze every last bit of useful material out of a piece...........
However, just been trying to get a quote for some acrylic/perspex for glazing a greenhouse.. and what I got to 4 sheets of 3mX2m the supplier got to 6 sheets using cutting list software............
I redrew my cutting list. Still 4 sheets. I then downloaded few freebie cutting list progs, all awful to use and did not make efficient use of the boards.......and not even any grain direction to consider.
Second supplier then responded. Quoted using 4 sheets as the amount required........ Spoke with them and asked what cutting list software they used. " Errr We don`t, we do it manually......
Anyone here that uses cutting list software and ever compared it to a manual calculation?

Years ago I was a branch manager in the plastics distribution industry and you'll find that is the norm.
I assume you've gone to a distributor such as Amari or Williaam Cox.

You are likely to be paying full retail for the sheets or a "cut rate" typically +25%.

You have to put this into context! 4 or 6 sheets of acrylic is a lot of hard earned to you but small beer to the supplier who deals with sign makers, shop fitters and fabricators etc.
It isn't cost effective unfortunately to spend time trying to get the best yield for your job - If you were a company buying every week, that would be different.

Although the supplier will probably use a wall saw, acrylic is very easy to cut on a standard saw table with a fine blade (you can put a shhet of sacrificial hardboard under if paranoid although the film gives good protection). A negative rake blade is best but not necessary.

You would get a better discount if buying full sheets and check first as often they hold more than one sheet size in stock.

ps. Don't buy the cheaper polystyrene glazing as it will yellow and go brittle as not uv stabilized.

 

[Streepips]

Well firstly, thanks for all the comments , answers, suggestions etc.
I have taken up Daves offer of running it through his software and will be of course interested in the result. Thanks Dave.
It is of course worth bearing in mind that the supplier with by far the best price is the one that does a manual calculation. ( in this case at least )
I also note the point by Boz62, run the cut list software then fine tune manually.........I think in that case I would be happier just to cut out the sware and do it manually start to finish.
I also note what 9fingers has to say about Smartcut.. Will have a look for that.

Lons, thanks for the industry insights.........and yes, its the UV stabilised clear extruded acrylic. Fine for what I need.
It was neither of the Disties you mention, and I know my way around opening a trade account even if I know its for a one off. Any discount given is easily negated though if the supplier overstates your material requirements, even if it is by virtue of how the software is set up.
and I understand the point about the cost benefit ratio in dealing with smaller infrequent orders, but they do all advertise for end user business and smaller quantities. At premium as you say though.

Finally, but by no means least, the inimitable Mr Grimsdale...
well. lets just say, I first began making up cutting lists when I was about 17. I spent my first 3 years at work backing off for the tablesaw, and getting to know the job that way, under the tuition of the "sawman" All part of the apprenticeship of a woodworking machinist. I went on to City & Guilds in Furniture Construction & Design, which of course also involves a lot of figure shuffling to get the best, most efficient and economical cuts from any given piece whilst maintaining the strength and integrity of the piece and of course, its aesthetics.
I now work for myself and have a machine shop, which amongst other things has a decent sized table saw, its a beam type sliding table with a telescopic outrigger and scoring blade and I am fairly proficient in its use. Plus a blade for every occasion of course.

I think there may be scope for a little competition here, various cutting lists, some directional ( with grain) and some non directional ( MDF, Acrylic) and see who gets what results out of it....

You could probably start with my cutting list as Dave has kindly offered !

Thanks again Lads, its all grist to the mill !

 

[9fingers]

Smart cut trial version here

http://www.rasterweq.com/downloads.htm

After 30 days the number of parts reduces to 30 unless you register for 60euro for 100 parts and up to 210 Euro for unlimited.

I evaluated it a few years ago now when there was also a restriction on the free version in that you could not print the results.
The work round for this is to do a screen capture (alt printscreen) and paste into your word processor or other programme.

Bob

 

[Streepips]

Thanks 9fingers, downloaded it and had a quick play. Looks very good!
Few issues, screen res will need to be changed to get the full screen.....
Could not "see" where to get from page 1 to 2 &3 of the results.
I entered as 4 panels available and it chose to use 3 of these and ignored the job pieces it could not get out of the fourth and just left it at 4 pcs not cut. Could not work out how to get it to just tell me how many sheets I need for an amount of cut product.
No doubt all that is in there, I suppose I need to study i ta little, but as I say, on first viewing it looks impressive.
Thanks
Chris

 

[9fingers]

There is a member Ivan, here who has(had?) a licensed copy and helped me with one or two queries getting going.

I met him last at Waka's bash last October but note that Ivan has not posted here since Nov 23 2009 - I hope he is ok.

Bob

 

[mr grimsdale]

...
Finally, but by no means least, the inimitable Mr Grimsdale...
well. lets just say, I first began making up cutting lists when I was about 17. I spent my first 3 years at work backing off for the tablesaw, and getting to know the job that way, under the tuition of the "sawman" All part of the apprenticeship of a woodworking machinist. I went on to City & Guilds in Furniture Construction & Design, which of course also involves a lot of figure shuffling to get the best, most efficient and economical cuts from any given piece whilst maintaining the strength and integrity of the piece and of course, its aesthetics.
I now work for myself and have a machine shop, which amongst other things has a decent sized table saw, its a beam type sliding table with a telescopic outrigger and scoring blade and I am fairly proficient in its use. Plus a blade for every occasion of course.

Impressed! Not sure what this has to do with my post though.

I think there may be scope for a little competition here, various cutting lists, some directional ( with grain) and some non directional ( MDF, Acrylic) and see who gets what results out of it....

The point about my method above is that you don't actually need to calculate anything (if you have enough stock for the list in the first place) - it takes care of itself.
And unlike any pre-estimated method, it self adjusts to any changes e.g. mistakes, unseen faults in the stock.
And it incorporates off-cuts etc which you wouldn't need to measure and feed in as data.
So in terms of a competition it would perform very well, with minimal waste - in real life if not on paper.
Working the other way i.e. estimating materials required for a job, personally I tend to take the easy way out and take total area or length plus a margin (10% or more) plus an allowance for any larger size pieces. Anything left over goes into the stock pile for the next job.

 

[oddsocks]

I ran the data sent by Streepips in Otimik and it took 4 sheets if optimized to cut along width and 5 sheets if along length. pics to show layout (which would have been easy enough to do manually as well as plenty of spare)

 

[Streepips]

Thanks for that Dave, and as can be seen, plenty left over !
and still a lot of scope for jiggling it around.....For example on sheet 4, sacrifice the 2 mtr strip and cut the larger offcut along the length as one panel... and so on.
So where the supplier got 6 sheets required is more and more of a mystery..........Unless they just wanted to screw more money out of a sale of course...........
Spoke with my preferred supplier yesterday with a view to making the 4 larger sections ( which are going to be roof panels) out of 4mm.
Originally all of it was going to be in 3mm. Seems thin I know, but should be perfectly adequate if well fixed in a deep rebate, oversized mounting holes, neoprene gaskets etc.
Price all in 3mm extruded clear acrylic is £279:40
Price with the 4 larger sections in 4mm is £329:70
Both subject to £25:00 delivery and VAT.

The price from the supplier that insist it need 6 sheets, and all in 3mm was £647:00 plus VAT

Plus the cheaper supplier will provide me with all the offcuts bar one which is of a quite large resaleable size. I can always use the bits!

I am really tempted to take Mr 6 sheets up on his offer to price match plus an extra 10% discount......

 

[Boz62]

I thought I'd add a correction to my earlier post. I've just done a "3 sheet" cutting list with 22 parts using the free Cutlist program I've already mentioned. It was pitifully slow (maybe running under Wine didn't help) but more importantly was not terribly accurate. In the end I got a far better solution (half a sheet saved in comparison) using the Draw part of OpenOffice and drawing it at 1/10 scale. With Object Snap enabled it all slots in place nicely and I'll now have 3/4 of a sheet of ply to play with when the project's over

Boz

 

[oddsocks]

that was my experience of cutlist as well when I tried it. Good idea re Draw. I used to do something similar with turbocad, just created a layer that I pasted the components into then butted them up