copies

[mr grimsdale]

.......
If you don't think that Maloof's work is original Richard, how can you think that your own is?
.....

Can't say I'm too bothered about S Maloof chairs myself. Beautifully made no doubt, nice chap by all accounts, but seen one you seen em all. Sci fi gothic stroke vernacular.

Sort of thing this chap would have behind the arris for when he wants to read the Fortean Times in comfort:-

Richard's pieces have a touch of the same IMHO with those curves.
Though they also remind me of nibbled barbecue chicken legs somehow. Maybe that's a theme to copy - legs in the shape of sausages, kebabs perhaps? :lol:

 

[Eric The Viking]

That kind of thing happens to all of us from time to time. My view however, is that in these circumstances I have failed as a salesman, or that my design is more than the client can afford; in which case I have failed as a designer!

Anyway, I doubt that the client ever thinks of in terms of stealing a design. They have asked you to quote for a job and you have done them a drawing. They get other quotes and go with the cheapest.

It all seems very reasonable from the client's point of view. They have no concept of intellectual property rights - a drawing is just a drawing of a job they want doing.

I think you're being unduly hard on yourself ("failed salesman") and generous to your clients!

People are sneaky, sadly, and rarely to their own advantage:

In another sphere, I spent days researching and preparing a technical proposal for a client, who then ordered some of the components (missing out items they didn't think were vital!), changed the plan, commissioned my company to do some of the installation (not all of it), and then complained to us when it didn't work to our original spec. We'd already offered the hardware at essentially cost price on the 'open book' principle, and, had they let us do it, stuff would have arrived on site already configured and proven.

We made a fairly large loss on the job, and they have a system that basically doesn't do what they wanted. Nobody got anything from it.

If it had been entirely down to me, I'd have walked away the moment they talked about buying kit themselves... (sigh).

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Duncan, I guess something I said bothered you, but I'm not sure what as I can't recall addressing any of my responses to you in this thread nor making any comments on your work in the past, either of the aesthetic or constructional qualities of what you produce. *Edit. Maybe I have made comments, but forgotten about it.

I don't claim to be a design guru, and I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to compare me to other furniture designer makers. I have designed work often enough over the years, and still do when required. Whether you like the work I design is another issue. I am aware that the designs I create are derived from something, although I can't properly define the lineage of the derivation as the inspiration comes from a wide variety of sources, all of which informs the design development and end result. Derivative designs are a quite common theme amongst designers, and that's what my comment on Maloof's style was meant to imply-- the tradition of crafted country and vernacular styles is quite easy to see and the end results are a genuine and very attractive extension of that tradition.

None of that alters the fact that I'm not particularly happy when another maker copies my work for their commercial gain, especially if they are aware that they have, or are likely to, cut me out. I'm fairly sure this has happened to me at least once in a situation where I could have supplied the original to their customer.

There are many unrecorded as well as recorded (ie, photographed or not) things I've made over the last 35 or so years that had little or no design input from me. The built-in piece you highlighted in your post is a case in point as I had very little influence on the design except to suggest the type of solid wood top and toekick and the dying, staining and type of white finish to use. I made it, installed it, got the cheque and deposited that in the bank. You are welcome to supply as many design pointers as you like on the piece, although, to be honest, your design input probably won't be helpful or useful to me now so long after the job. But, if I can find the name and contact details of the person who did the bulk of the design work, I could possibly give you their details so that you can communicate directly with them.

If I wasn't teaching now I'd probably still be living in the US, and possibly still running my own furniture business. It was because I wanted to move back to the UK after ten years in Texas that I became an accidental teacher: a teaching job was offered here in the UK and I decided to take it. I happen to also think that thirty years in the furniture industry prior to going in to teaching furniture making subjects is probably relevant and useful to learners. And perhaps I was ready for a change from the day to day business end of furniture design and craft with a move into a related but different field. Slainte.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

... they also remind me of nibbled barbecue chicken legs somehow. Maybe that's a theme to copy - legs in the shape of sausages, kebabs perhaps?

You are too kind Jacob. Catch sight of a pair of those legs I've used in some of my designs at just the right angle, and on the the right piece of furniture, and they'll remind you of the rear end of a donkey. Slainte.

 

[BradNaylor]

Here is an example that is absolutely typical.

A couple came to see me today about a new kitchen. They brought with them various photos of kitchens and furniture which they had either printed off the internet or clipped from magazines, to give me an idea of what they are after.

One thing they were definite about is that they want a dresser just like this one.

The thing is, if I copy this dresser exactly from the photo, am I breaching any copyright or stealing anyone's design?

I think not. It is a bog standard dresser with paintedface frame and shaker doors and with a solid wood top. Virtually identical dressers are made all over the world by almost any maker you can think of. Someone presumably 'designed' this particular dresser for this particular manufacturer but it is impossible to see how any copyright could possibly be claimed as it is such a generic example of this type of piece of furniture.

So if it is OK to copy from a photo of a dresser like this one, where is the line that one should not cross?

If I see a photo online of a piece of furniture I like the look of, is it OK for me to copy it if I consider it to be derivitive or generic? Or must I take the word of the 'designer' that the design is his intellectual property?

The truth is that very little is truly original. Most new furniture consists of age-old proven componants assembled together in a slightly different way. The piece that satrted this discussion is an exception;

This, it has to be said, is pretty unusual.

The client's wife came to see me yesterday and apologised, but she wants to make some changes!

The 'fins' are staying but only on the doors - she wants flat end panels. She also wants the whole thing in oak to match her floor instead of walnut and doesn't like the metal legs - can she have wooden ones?

So I'm off the hook! The only bit of he original design that will remain is the shape of the spindle moulder cutter I will use to profile the stock for the doors. I don't think that should upset anybody...

 

[Mr T]

Hi Duncan

I would agree with you on the bog standard (not to say boring) painted kitchens, the form is so universal that no one could claim IP.

The side broad is another matter. But as they have asked for changes, as you say, you are off the hook, only problem is that the changes have probably completely spoilt the original concept!

Chris

 

[Steve Maskery]

Brad
As a matter of interest, do you know how much that dresser costs from the manufacturer? It's years since I've made anything that big, and even then, it was for us, not a client. I wouldn't know where to start costing it.
S

 

[Shultzy]

I've looked at Brad's sideboard and come up with 3 distinct design points specific to this piece.

1 - the legs/feet
2 - the profile on the door
3 - the profile going around the sides

Does this mean that any piece produced with one of these features is a copy of the original or does it mean all three? If the profile is different is it a copy, or is it the combination of profile and going around the sides which is the actual design that must not be copied?

 

[BradNaylor]

I've looked at Brad's sideboard and come up with 3 distinct design points specific to this piece.

1 - the legs/feet
2 - the profile on the door
3 - the profile going around the sides

Does this mean that any piece produced with one of these features is a copy of the original or does it mean all three? If the profile is different is it a copy, or is it the combination of profile and going around the sides which is the actual design that must not be copied?

And there in a nutshell is the whole problem.

'Copying' is an important part of the progress of human achievement. Take power tools.

A manufacturer launches the idea of the cordless drill in the 1970s. Within a few years every power tool manufacturer makes cordless drills, and a few years after that you can own buy brand versions in B&Q for a tenner.

Exactly the same with LCD tellies. One firm invents them, has a very short time to recoup their R&D costs, and then everyone else piles in.

This is how the world works; I do not see why it should be any different for furniture designs.

And it isn't.

 

[devonwoody]

I have seen the word copyright used on this thread.

Surely it is a patent issue, I cannot see anyone being granted a patent on a table, perhaps if it had ten tops and was designed for ten tier use someone could claim it was different. :x

Anyway to make a claim against someone it could cost you more in legal expenses than any award you might receive.

 

[PAC1]

Brad. No one has said that Intellectual Property law treats furniture making differently. The law is applied equally to all intellectual endeavour. The issue is defining the boundaries. The two examples you give show the boundary quite well. Craftsmen have been making dressers like the picture for hundreds of years. The sideboard clearly has some unique features. What we have to do is know and respect the boundaries.

IP law has real consequences just look at Dyson, RIM (the Blackberry) and Apple. They all spend a fortune each year defending their intellectual property. RIM spent over half a billion on one case! Most of us cannot afford to go to law over a piece of furniture but it does happen. I have represented Architects and Engineers where they have made a design then been sacked and the Client then goes and builds the building without paying the full fee.

IP law and the moral issues are just another matter we need to be aware of.

 

[PAC1]

Devonwoody: It is not a patent issue as you probably could not get a patent on most furniture. Someone a long time ago invented the chair, table etc. The issue is about copyright and design rights that attach to some persons design of a chair or sideboard.
Take a simple example if an Architect designs you a house or factory. That will give you the right to build that house or factory. It does not give you the right to build a second house or factory without paying the Architect further fees. If anyone copies the Architects design he is entitled to stop them or demand a fee for the use of his design. No one says he cannot because houses and factories were invented long ago. The same principle applies to furniture design. If you directly copy someones design you could be liable to pay compensation to the designer.

As for legal costs we have this system that the winner of litigation has his costs paid by the looser. Therefore the copier pays compensation and costs

 

[devonwoody]

Your reply to my post PAC is acceptable, but the only thing I would reply is that it is no use suing someone if they are on legal aid or have no substantial assets. ?

 

[devonwoody]

Coming back in again, many books display items of furniture and other craftsmen made items together with measurements, cutting lists, and construction detail information etc. but then still put a copyright notice at the front of the book. I think when they do that they have got a bloody nerve and a cheek.
Are they cherry picking, so they can sue if they like?

 

[AndyT]

Coming back in again, many books display items of furniture and other craftsmen made items together with measurements, cutting lists, and construction detail information etc. but then still put a copyright notice at the front of the book. I think when they do that they have got a bloody nerve and a cheek.
Are they cherry picking, so they can sue if they like?

No, that's because you're not allowed to copy the book (to make another book).

Several people have posted links to explanations of the law and have made careful distinctions between the various sorts of time-limited legal protection of intellectual property.

 

[BradNaylor]

Brad
As a matter of interest, do you know how much that dresser costs from the manufacturer? It's years since I've made anything that big, and even then, it was for us, not a client. I wouldn't know where to start costing it.
S

Simple really.

How long is it going to take to make?
What is the cost of all the materials?
How much do you need to charge per day to cover your costs and pay yourself a reasonable 'wage'?

So say it would take two weeks to make, the material cost is £350, and you need £200 per day;

(10 x 200) + 350 = £2350

If that looks a bit cheap or you just think you can get a bit more for it, say three grand. That sounds about right to me.

Cheers
Brad

 

[Steve Maskery]

Spot on!
I had 3K in mind, but no real route to that figure.
Thank you.
S

PS Is that your quote or what the original mnftr charges?

 

[devonwoody]

Coming back in again, many books display items of furniture and other craftsmen made items together with measurements, cutting lists, and construction detail information etc. but then still put a copyright notice at the front of the book. I think when they do that they have got a bloody nerve and a cheek.
Are they cherry picking, so they can sue if they like?

No, that's because you're not allowed to copy the book (to make another book).

Several people have posted links to explanations of the law and have made careful distinctions between the various sorts of time-limited legal protection of intellectual property.

Andy, if you see an item of furniture in a magazine and copied the furniture item we are back to square one of this thread, might not be the magazine you are copying but the discussion earlier could then be said to be the fact. The magazine has copyright and the item of furniture has rights?

 

[BradNaylor]

Is that your quote or what the original mnftr charges?

I've no idea what the manufacturer charges.

As far as my quote is concerned, the dresser is just part of a large fitted kitchen in the same style, but that is the kind of figure I have in mind. I prefer though, to give a global price for the whole job rather than breaking it down into componant parts.

If the customer insists on a break-down I smell an awkward sod and walk...

 

[Steve Maskery]

If the customer insists on a break-down I smell an awkward sod and walk...

Very wise. Been there, done that. All in a previous life.
Thank you for the info.
Steve