Comparison of tool prices over time.

[Trafalgar]

Have at it. Union or nonunion wages?

Let me know where you find the numbers. BLS might have them, though maybe not (see page 4):

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/cwc/america ... entury.pdf

I did see in one BLS publication where a union bricklayer in Chicago made $1.50 an hour in 1925 and a $1.25 an hour in 1920. The same guy in Marks, Mississippi (where my mother is from) would have made less than half that, most likely.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Have at it. Union or nonunion wages?

Let me know where you find the numbers. BLS might have them, though maybe not (see page 4):

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/cwc/america ... entury.pdf

Charles, you are now being deliberately obstructionistic.

I'm out of your game. Play it with others .... if they wish to play.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Trafalgar]

Deliberately obstructionist? The data may simply not exist. I guess that's my fault? Again, the US is a big place. It takes almost eight hours to drive just from Memphis to the TN/North Carolina border. Hard to gather or even administrate the gathering of this sort of data. The US was in a post WWI small depression in the early 1920s as well. Resources were limited. Remember, this would have been pencil, paper, and mechanical tabulators. They didn't have Deep Blue running SPSS back then.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Charles, if you keep narrowing down the selection details, then you will fail to find anything. This is not about planning the next moon landing.

http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/his/e_prices1.htm

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/20soirepar.pdf

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=u ... ge;num=110

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Trafalgar]

I see a statistic called 'building trades' for 1920 that showed a $1.08 an hour. And one from the other source that showed 'carpenters' at $1.27 an hour in 1925 and our Chicago union bricklayer at $1.50 in 1925.

Bench woodworkers (encompassing cabinet/furnituremakers), as opposed to site craftsmen, I assume, are lumped into the average somewhere.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

So do both, or use their average.

All we are looking for is an estimate of comparable costs vs earnings for the Bedrock-LN planes roughly 1920 (heyday of Bedrocks) and then throw in current USA figures (choose whichever city/cities/National average you prefer).

Charles, you know how to do this. As I recall somewhere you were an accountant once upon a time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Trafalgar]

The numbers seem quaint, don't they?

$1.08/hr ("building trades" catch-all average) to $1.50/hr (union bricklayer in Chicago) is a 38.9% change. What we think of as a few cents was real money back then. Somebody making $1.08 that got a raise to $1.50 would have been on Cloud 9 and looking to upgrade every aspect of his or her economic life.

Derek, think about what you net in your practice every year and do the math with close to a 40% increase.

Gracious, you could actually pay LV for the tools they send you.... :wink:

 

[bugbear]

The numbers sound quaint, don't they?

$1.08 to $1.50 is 38.9% change. What we think of as a few cents was real money back then. Somebody making $1.08 that got a raise to $1.50 would have been on Cloud 9 and looking to upgrade every aspect of his or her economic life.

Derek, think about what you net in your practice every year and do the math with close to a 40% increase.

Gracious, you could actually pay LV for the tools they send you.... :wink:

Do grow up, Charles.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

The numbers sound quaint, don't they?

$1.08 to $1.50 is 38.9% change. What we think of as a few cents was real money back then. Somebody making $1.08 that got a raise to $1.50 would have been on Cloud 9 and looking to upgrade every aspect of his or her economic life.

Derek, think about what you net in your practice every year and do the math with close to a 40% increase.

Gracious, you could actually pay LV for the tools they send you.... :wink:

Do grow up, Charles.

BugBear

Just illustrating a point BB.

 

[AndyT]

Much as I enjoy the contributions of experienced members, it looks like the exchange in the last few posts has shown that trying to factor in such different economic histories does indeed make Paddy's original question too complicated to answer.
Could I suggest we look back at his original request for examples from within our collective memory?

 

[Mr_P]

Not much help from me then, since I was born a few weeks after the war. That's post Vietnam btw.

Think the thread has got itself into a bit of a mess since the original question had a few flaws as they have already have been pointed out. Mainly not comparing like with like.

Imported LN and the Made in the UK 1960's Stanley
The LN is based on the Bedrock which ceased production during WW2.
Economies of scale with the mass produced Stanley Bailey's of the 60's

 

[matthewwh]

Gentlemen please!

This is UKWorkshop and the question was posed by Paddy (in London) why on earth would it be more relevant to discuss American pricing?

PPP is normally used for comparing across currencies but works just as well over time. By relating prices to an agreed good or service (days wages in this case) you can compare £ today with $US today or £/S/d in 1925. It's a crude method at best but certainly a valid one in this context.

You can't account for every subtle nuance, but if it allows you to see the difference between half as much, about the same, or three times as much then you have a little more to go on than a 'feeling in your bones', which was what the OP asked for.

Andy T's post gives us another point in time with a Stanley No.4 still costing just under a days money in 1979.

It seems to me that across several time points, a days pay is about right for a usable metal bodied No.4. Pay a touch more and you get an original bedrock in the 1920's or a QS now, pay two and a half times as much and you could have had an infill in the 1920's or an LN now.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

In 1923 a Stanley Bedrock #604 cost $5.90
https://virginiatoolworks.files.wordpre ... r-1923.jpg


The average per capita income of USA in 1920 was $688
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 724AADwcGR

Based on this, one could purchase 116.6 planes in one year


The average per capita income of USA in 2013 was $28,184
http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/us/

Current price of LN #4 = $350
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4171/ ... nch-planes

Based on this, one could purchase 80.5 planes in one year


2015 Stanley Sweetheart #4 costs $150
http://www.stanleytools.com/ps-whrtobuy ... =US_12-136

Based on this, one could purchase 187.8 planes in one year

2015 WoodRiver #4 plane cost $145
http://www.woodcraft.com/product/150874 ... ne-v3.aspx

Based on this, one could purchase 194.3 planes in one year


Conclusion: LN planes are 40% more expensive than their Stanley Bedrock counterparts of their day, while the current Stanley Sweetheart #4 is about 60% cheaper (similar to the WoodRiver).

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[AndyT]

Ok here are some more data points. Gardiner and Sons, Bristol, 1940.

Stanley or Record no 4 - 13s 6d.
No 5 - 16s 6d.
Cheapest Norris infill smoother was a parallel sided 2" iron with an iron lever cap, at 22s.

Fast forward to 1959, after severe post-war inflation and the prices are very close to what the Woodworker listed -

Stanley no 4 - 41s, Record - 40s 9d. New British contendor Woden, 37s 6d.

For no 5s, Stanley - 49s 9d, Record - 49s 9d, Woden - 47s.
Norris planes were no longer listed in the catalogue.

 

[Mr_P]

And for another price comparison, when I bought my first plane in 1979, it was a made in England Stanley no 4, with plastic handles, (which performs beautifully). I bought it in Barnitt's in York, which is still trading, and I am pretty sure I paid about £16 - 20 for it.
At the time I was temporarily working 48 hrs a week at the local glass factory, grossing about £100 a week which was a very good wage. My rent for half of a 2 bed flat was cheap at £5 a week. Beer was about 28p a pint, petrol was, I think, about 38p a gallon.

You were robbed, either that or the winter of discontent had a massive effect on prices.

April 1977 Stanley booklet
No.4 = £10.32

1985 Stanley booklet (20p this one)
No.4 = £23.50

 

[Trafalgar]

For what it's worth:

Data for the United States:

1967 base year=100
2015 Consumer Price Index: 720.3
1923 Consumer Price Index: 51.2

Factor (divide the two): 14.068

Multiply by $1: $14.07

One dollar in 1923 is worth $14.07 today, which seems to indicate that planes were cheap when compared to the basket of consumer goods which makes up the index. This could be considered consistent with Stanley's high volume model rather than a boutique maker's low volume/high(er) margin model.

Source (Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis): https://www.minneapolisfed.org/communit ... index-1800

 

[AndyT]

And for another price comparison, when I bought my first plane in 1979, it was a made in England Stanley no 4, with plastic handles, (which performs beautifully). I bought it in Barnitt's in York, which is still trading, and I am pretty sure I paid about £16 - 20 for it.
At the time I was temporarily working 48 hrs a week at the local glass factory, grossing about £100 a week which was a very good wage. My rent for half of a 2 bed flat was cheap at £5 a week. Beer was about 28p a pint, petrol was, I think, about 38p a gallon.

You were robbed, either that or the winter of discontent had a massive effect on prices.

April 1977 Stanley booklet
No.4 = £10.32

1985 Stanley booklet (20p this one)
No.4 = £23.50

I think I may have left it a bit too long to go back and complain...

Maybe I didn't pay as much as I thought - I can't really be certain after all these years - but inflation was kicking in big time back then and it became normal to find goods with several layers of price stickers on.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

And for another price comparison, when I bought my first plane in 1979, it was a made in England Stanley no 4, with plastic handles, (which performs beautifully). I bought it in Barnitt's in York, which is still trading, and I am pretty sure I paid about £16 - 20 for it.
At the time I was temporarily working 48 hrs a week at the local glass factory, grossing about £100 a week which was a very good wage. My rent for half of a 2 bed flat was cheap at £5 a week. Beer was about 28p a pint, petrol was, I think, about 38p a gallon.

You were robbed, either that or the winter of discontent had a massive effect on prices.

April 1977 Stanley booklet
No.4 = £10.32

1985 Stanley booklet (20p this one)
No.4 = £23.50

Inflation was pretty rampant in the late '70s and early '80s. If I recall correctly, it peaked at about 25% per annum, but calmed down somewhat in the 1980s. Several price rises in a year were very common; in one of my early working years, we had pay rises every six months. Hence, the relative prices quoted for 1977, 1979 and 1985 are quite believable, especially if it was early 1977 and late 1979.


Edit to add - a couple more data points.

Record o4 smoother bought new from C.J.Bent's of Warrington in August 1986 was £25.36.

Record 07 try plane bought new mail order from Tabwell Tools of Bakewell in November 1989 was £37.50, including £2.50 p&p, so the plane cost £35.00.

(Just for the record (boom boom!) the 04 was dreadful - banana sole, finished by rough linisher - but the 07 was nicely finished, flat and a credit to the makers. It still is, but the 04 has had a LOT of fettling. Why a 1986 plane was dreck and a 1989 one was fine, I know not; maybe they overhauled the smoother production line but kept on the old try production line because there wasn't enough sales volume to warrant a revamp, or summat.)

 

[Droogs]

And for another price comparison, when I bought my first plane in 1979, it was a made in England Stanley no 4, with plastic handles, (which performs beautifully). I bought it in Barnitt's in York, which is still trading, and I am pretty sure I paid about £16 - 20 for it.
At the time I was temporarily working 48 hrs a week at the local glass factory, grossing about £100 a week which was a very good wage. My rent for half of a 2 bed flat was cheap at £5 a week. Beer was about 28p a pint, petrol was, I think, about 38p a gallon.

You were robbed, either that or the winter of discontent had a massive effect on prices.

April 1977 Stanley booklet
No.4 = £10.32

1985 Stanley booklet (20p this one)
No.4 = £23.50

Well that puts the Stanely's No4 planes at just under a days wages as my daily rate of pay when I joined up in 85 was £26.47p a day and 2 years later once a qualified tradesman was 29.80

 

[MIGNAL]

You must have good memories you lot. I can barely remember what I paid for something last week, let alone in 1980!
Old age, don't you just love it.