Circular saw safety

[morfa]

I have a Scheppach CL55 Plunge/Track saw and this has a riving knife. When you engage the motor and push down, it just pops out along with the blade. It's a really nice saw actually. Quite a bit cheaper than the versions you're looking at, but for my DIY use it's been great. Not sure how well it'd stand up to daily use.

 

[Hugo_Wolfwhistle]

Thanks, I don't mind doing the research, unfortunately though I don't think I am an experienced enough wood worker to know if I should believe it or not, hence why I wanted to ask everyone on here.

Now all I need to do is decide on which saw to get! Although I have had plenty of good suggestions.

I think I am going to aim to get a tracksaw, and a cheap(ish) large circular saw (possibly 2nd hand).

I think I have just about convinced myself by reading the regulations and hearing from the manufacturers that I could maybe do without the riving knife on the track saw now and therefore I am probably going to have to make a hard decision between the Makita SP6000 (£300 with 2 rails, joiners and systainer) or the TS55 (£315 with 1 rail and systainer), but that comes down to if I can either justify the cost of the extra rail + joiners for the festool, or if I could make do with 1 rail or not for now. The Dewalt is also a possibility, but at the moment it seems to work out as expensive as the Festool.

I have a Scheppach CL55 Plunge/Track saw and this has a riving knife.

The Scheppach was tempting at that price to be honest and I am sure it is a great saw, but I had to disregard it in my buying decision because it doesn't seem to be compatible with festool/makita style rails, and I will probably want to use other tools with the rails in the future. Glad the Scheppach is working well for you though.

As for the other circular "standard" circular saw, that will depend on what I see come up for sale, but I was thinking something with a 235mm blade. Still don't think I would be comfortable about not having a riving knife on something this size though.

Perhaps the thinking is that it is safer to get the guard around the spinning blade as quickly as possible.

I think you are probably right, it does have some logic to it.

I do want to make clear though that I think all the reasons and regulations discussed above apply only to hand held circular saws (and plunge saws).
Furthermore, it is important to note that even if it does turn out to be true that saws designed without riving knives (to the new regulations) are as safe as saws with the riving knife, then this would only apply to saws actually designed from the start not to have a riving knife, and does not apply to saws which were designed with the knife but which has had the knife removed by the operator. So in summary;

• If a saw was designed with a riving knife, then it is important not to remove the knife as it is designed to rely on the knife
• If a saw was designed not have the capability to have a riving knife fitted, then make sure it was designed to comply with EN 60745-2-5:2010. If it does comply with this standard, then depending on if you believe the reasons given by the manufacturers/regulations it may be as safe to use as a saw with a riving knife.

Sorry for the really long posts, but I thought that the information might be useful to someone else in the future too.

 

[morfa]

I have a Scheppach CL55 Plunge/Track saw and this has a riving knife.

The Scheppach was tempting at that price to be honest and I am sure it is a great saw, but I had to disregard it in my buying decision because it doesn't seem to be compatible with festool/makita style rails, and I will probably want to use other tools with the rails in the future. Glad the Scheppach is working well for you though.

It's a great thread. Really useful. Yes, you're totally right, the scheppach rails don't work with other systems. Pity.

Lots of folk say good things about American 'worm drive' circular saws if you're looking for a second saw. Not sure if they'll have riving guards on them however.

 

[Mark A]

Lots of folk say good things about American 'worm drive' circular saws if you're looking for a second saw. Not sure if they'll have riving guards on them however.

I'm a proud owner of a nice old Skil HD77 wormdrive and can safely say it's the best non plunge-style saw I've ever used. Unfortunately they aren't readily available in this country so unless Mr. Hugo is willing to import one from the States I'd advise he obtains a conventional saw from the UK.

Although I appreciate the argument in favour of riving knives, every saw I've owned which has come with one as standard has been bent or so badly fitted it fouls in the kerf. No matter how I shimmed the knife it still wouldn't work correctly, so I'd end up removing it and using the saw without. Wormdrives don't have riving knives, which enables the guard to be much more robust. Personally I prefer an effective guard to a useless piece of stamped metal which inevitable finds itself in the bin.


I would never suggest anyone attempts this because it's stupid, but out of curiosity I purposely tried to coax my wormdrive to kickback today. I should add here that I was braced for the kickback if it occurred so it wouldn't have amounted to anything, unlike the typical situation which takes the user completely unawares, resulting in potentially serious injury as he's not ready for the sudden backwards force.

I canted the blade approx. 20 degrees off vertical and proceeded to rip along a a length of 3x2 redwood with the saw set to max. depth of cut, zigzagging slightly as I went. Nothing happened; the blade kept spinning despite the lateral forces applied to it. With the saw still in the timber I adjusted the bevel to maybe 18 or 19 degrees, and then I screwed the kerf closed behind the blade which simulated a warped piece of wood. I proceeded to start the saw and it re-cut the kerf with no problems. Then with the blade still spinning I slowly pulled the saw backwards (in effect I was climb-cutting, which is not advised) and it happily sliced through the timber.

Perhaps I was unlucky and couldn't achieve kickback despite my best efforts, or maybe the wormdrive's considerable torque prevented the blade from becoming seized in the timber; either way as long as the saw user is aware of how kickback occurs and is prepared for it I don't see it being much of an issue. This is assuming he has sure footing, the work piece is secured and he's not attempting a riskier operation like plunge cutting.


Mark

P.S. Just a quick tip... If you notice the kerf has started to close behind the blade then insert a 3mm plastic packer. The grippy texture of the shim prevents it from falling out accidentally.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I like my Makita, but in the choice with a TS55, don't put too much store by the Makita kit having a second rail.

Good:
- the Makita kit comes with a good carry bag for rails and clamps (Festool clamps are actually cheaper: they fit).
- you can tackle 8ft boards (just about),
- 1.4m rails are easier to carry around and store than a 3m one (and cheaper!).
Bad:
- the joining system, which Festool also uses*, is really rubbish. It is quite unnecessarily hard to get the two aligned, and the grub screws make rings in the soft aluminium, making subsequent alignments even harder.
- even when they are aligned, any bend in the rails (woefully easy to do, incidentally), means the saw bumps over the joint, or simply jams, and the joint also scrapes the sole plate of the saw, increasing wear.

I am seriously considering a 3m rail as a consequence, even though it is difficult to store (but oddly, it will fit in my car!). D+M Tools sell it, and it's a lot cheaper than the Festool one.

So given the joiner system is pretty poor, the price difference to the TS55 is negligible. You can run Festool saws on Makita rails and vice versa, but many of the handy Festool accessories, in particular the distance stops, which look really good, don't fit Makita rails. The Makita anti-tip feature (which needs both their saw and their rails), isn't on the TS55 though.

When I bought mine the Makita price difference was substantial. That's no longer true.

I like my Makita (and it's made in the UK!), but, if I was buying again now, I'd get a TS55 kit and a 3m Makita rail.

E.

*It might be OK if the manufacturing tolerances of the joiner bars were tighter. The Festool bars might be better made, which would overcome many of the issues. Next time I'm in Axminster on a quiet morning, I'll ask them to show me both, as they stock both sets. Using Festool joiners with my existing Makita rails might be a way forward, for me, but presently untested.

 

[Hugo_Wolfwhistle]

Lots of folk say good things about American 'worm drive' circular saws if you're looking for a second saw. Not sure if they'll have riving guards on them however.

Yeah, I had seen those being talked about on some of the American forums, but never seen one here. People seem to love them over there. Is the benefit of them just their lower speed/higher torque? I know Hilti did a Hypoid saw available here a few years ago (I think it even had a plunge action to it, albeit the pivot was at the front like a normal circular saw and the plunge was not against a spring). I am not sure what the exact difference between hypoid and worm drives is, but they seem similar. That saw gets rave reviews from the Eureka Zone guys too, but Hilti don't make it anymore.

Although I appreciate the argument in favour of riving knives, every saw I've owned which has come with one as standard has been bent or so badly fitted it fouls in the kerf. No matter how I shimmed the knife it still wouldn't work correctly, so I'd end up removing it and using the saw without. Wormdrives don't have riving knives, which enables the guard to be much more robust. Personally I prefer an effective guard to a useless piece of stamped metal which inevitable finds itself in the bin.

Thanks for the interesting perspective, so it would seem that you agree with the reasons the manufacturers and regulations give?

With the saw still in the timber I adjusted the bevel to maybe 18 or 19 degrees, and then I screwed the kerf closed behind the blade which simulated a warped piece of wood. I proceeded to start the saw and it re-cut the kerf with no problems.

Really interesting practical comparison too, especially the finding that the blade did just cut its self free on the restart. Also thanks for the tip on the plastic wedges.

Unfortunately they aren't readily available in this country so unless Mr. Hugo is willing to import one from the States I'd advise he obtains a conventional saw from the UK.

I would consider importing a worm drive from the states if they are as good as everyone says, but I thought that they wouldn't work with UK voltage and frequency? I have heard people suggest just using a UK 110V site transformer to power US tools, but my understanding of the UK 110V site system was that it isn't really 110V AC like the US grid system, it is actually 2 separate 55V AC lines and an earth which means that the UK 110V site system only ever has 110V when measured between the 2 "live" wires, but only ever 55V between one of the lives and ground. I think the US 110V system is just a single 110V AC live.
I could well be completely wrong on this though, but even so the frequency difference would surely mean that the US tool would run too slow here?

I like my Makita, but in the choice with a TS55, don't put too much store by the Makita kit having a second rail.

Thanks for the pros and cons list Eric, really helpful to get feedback from an owner. Just to check I understand your post correctly, are you saying that you don't think the 2nd 1.4m rail with the Makita would be much use to me (because of alignment issues), therefore the TS55 with 1x 1.4m rail at £315 is going to be just as useful as the Makita with 2x 1.4m rails + connectors for £300, and therefore the saws are really comparable price?

If so, are you suggesting that I would be better to buy either of them with 1x 1.4m rail, and then also buy a 3m rail as well?

I like my Makita (and it's made in the UK!), but, if I was buying again now, I'd get a TS55 kit and a 3m Makita rail.

I am interested to know why you suggest getting the festool saw but then get a 3m Makita rail? Are the Makita 3m rails substantially cheaper? You mentioned earlier that not all Festool accessories work with the Makita rail, so if I can find a 3m Festool rail for similar money to the 3m Makita, then should I get that instead?
What accessories don't work with the Makita rails?

Thanks for all your advice, really appreciate it.

 

[dickm]

The wheelwright in the village where I grew up had an original Black and Decker Ripsnorter some time in the late 50s/60s, which was worm drive. Amazingly, they still come up on the secondhand market occasionally but up here in NE Scotland, the term Ripsnorter is often used for any sort of hand held circular saw.
What I don't understand is why worm drive should be superior? Can the motor run at a higher speed, which may be beneficial for a brush motor, or is it the alignment of the motor relative to the blade? If it's the latter, then a hypoid, which also has the motor in line, but uses a crown wheel and pinion like the back axle of a rear wheel drive car, should also be "better".
Any engineers out there can enlighten?

 

[Eric The Viking]

I like my Makita, but in the choice with a TS55, don't put too much store by the Makita kit having a second rail.

Thanks for the pros and cons list Eric, really helpful to get feedback from an owner. Just to check I understand your post correctly, are you saying that you don't think the 2nd 1.4m rail with the Makita would be much use to me (because of alignment issues), therefore the TS55 with 1x 1.4m rail at £315 is going to be just as useful as the Makita with 2x 1.4m rails + connectors for £300, and therefore the saws are really comparable price?

If so, are you suggesting that I would be better to buy either of them with 1x 1.4m rail, and then also buy a 3m rail as well?

I think that's what I'd do if I was buying again. The basic kits had a big price difference when I bought mine AND Makita had two rails and a bag as standard. So because I was buying on a tight budget there was no contest.

Now Festool have changed their channel marketing strategy (he said, politely), and their dealers discount more than they used to. Given that, I would seriously consider having just a TS55 and a single rail, and buying a long rail when I had need.

Why the Makita long rail? Basically, price. Last time I looked, the Makita 3m rail was less than half the Festool price.

You can do more with the Festool rails in terms of fitting accessories etc. The Makita saws have an anti-tipover feature for use when you're sawing a bevel cut (and It does work well). The TS55 can't use that*, BUT all the twiddly stuff you can do with a Festool rail, you wouldn't want to do with a 3m rail anyway (such as plunge distance stops, mainly used for sink cutouts in kitchen worktops).

I guess if you ever want to run a router on it then that's different, but otherwise, given both saws do the basic job well on both sets of rails, to me that's a no-brainer.

I get by when cutting 8ft boards lengthwise at the moment, but when you have to make a lot of repeat cuts (I was slicing up ply recently to fit through our small attic hatch to board it out), fiddling with a pair of guides is a right pain. If you're clumsy (and I am!) you risk bending either the guides or the joiner pieces, at which point it's expensively game over.

It wouldn't matter if you had Festool or Makita - once joined as a pair, they're a nuisance to move around together.

if I can find a 3m Festool rail for similar money to the 3m Makita, then should I get that instead?
What accessories don't work with the Makita rails?

I think I would, but I doubt Festool have halved the price. Go have a look in a Festool dealer: Axminster sell both incidentally, and (courtesy of a salesperson on a quiet Tuesday morning), I spent a happy half-hour playing with the Festool attachments to find out what fitted on which rails (the wife wasn't too happy, but she'd brought a novel in case, so I got away with it).

I don't think Axminster sell the 3m Makita rail (they have always had a limited subset of Makita accessories for their power tools), but my local Makita agent offered it to me recently for about 120 quid and no shipping charge - can't be bad.

Things that work the same on both:
- the saws' basic functions - straight cuts and bevelled straight cuts, and plunging (without distance stops along the rail).
- the mitre gauges (they're identical I think. I have the Makita one and it's pretty rubbish)
- The clamping system to clamp work under the rail (the track underneath for the F-clamps is identical.
- Both saws can do 'backwards' scoring cuts at 2mm depth for cleanly cutting faced boards.
Things that don't work the same:
- Anything that uses the Festool accessory T-track at the back of the rail. The Makita's isn't the same - it has a C shaped slot instead (for the anti-tipover thing), and the Festool distance stops, the accessory tracks at right angles, and anything like the router carrier probably won't fit on it. That said, the mitre gauge I think is the exception (see above - it's rubbish).

I'm making some bedroom wardrobes soon, probably in veneered MDF (if I do the carcases myself). I'll get the Makita 3m rail then, as otherwise doing a lot of 8ft cuts will simply be too awkward. It'll pay for itself quickly.

E.

*(guess you might mod it though, fairly easily)

 

[Hugo_Wolfwhistle]

What I don't understand is why worm drive should be superior? Can the motor run at a higher speed, which may be beneficial for a brush motor, or is it the alignment of the motor relative to the blade? If it's the latter, then a hypoid, which also has the motor in line, but uses a crown wheel and pinion like the back axle of a rear wheel drive car, should also be "better".
Any engineers out there can enlighten?

I too would like to know why they are so highly regarded. The only advantages I could see are that the torque is higher on a worm drive, and because they all seem to have the blade on the other side I could imagine that cut line visibility might be better. The flip side of the higher torque though is that the speed must be lower (assuming a fixed motor power) and I had thought higher blade speed was better for cuts (at least in wood). Therefore I don't know if it is better to have higher speed or higher torque?
If it is just the torque thing that is an advantage then surely saws like those ones from Evolution which have a high reduction gearbox should perform similarly unless there is something else going on?

Your suggestion of the alignment of the motor relative to the blade is interesting though, are you suggesting that there may be some sort of gyroscopic type effects/benefits by having the motor axis at 90 degrees to the blade axis? I could sort of imagine how this might make them a bit easier to handle for their size?

Given that, I would seriously consider having just a TS55 and a single rail, and buying a long rail when I had need.

Thanks for the advice Eric. I think that is the way I might go. The number of full 8ft rips that I will be doing (at least initially) will be fairly limited, so I suppose I could probably make do with just the 1 rail for now if needed. I could always buy another when/if I find I need it often.
Unfortunately I suspect that I won't be able to consider getting the 3m rail (of any make) for the foreseeable future as I just don't think I have the space in the garage/workshop to store it easily. The garage is only 2.3m wide by about 4m long with a ceiling height of about 2.4m, so the only way to store the 3m rail would be horizontally, and then it would tend to be in the way of everything.
Therefore I think I am probably always going to have to make do with joining rails for the longer cuts. Is it really that bad if I take care and use a straight edge to line them up?

Knowing the space constraints would it change your recommendation of TS55 with 1 rail vs Makita with 2 for the same price?

In terms of accessories I would be looking at for it in the future, I was thinking of using a router on the rails (need to get a new router soon anyway) and also possibly the other "standard" circular saw (using an adapter). Also I was planning to build an MFT type bench that would work with the rails, and I had been looking at the mitre guages (although from your description, I shouldn't bother).
I doubt I will be considering Festool's routers (too expensive for the amount of routing I do), do you think Makita's router, jigsaw and 5703r guide rail adapters, or Hitachi's adapters would fit on the festool and Makita rails?

Also when considering the "standard" circular saw to compliment the track saw, do you think that electronic speed control (like on the Track saws, and some Bosch and Metabo standard saws) really matters much?
Bosch and Metabo both make a big deal of it, and so do the track saws, but other standard saws from other manufacturers don't seem to have it.

Cheers

 

[Eric The Viking]

Knowing the space constraints would it change your recommendation of TS55 with 1 rail vs Makita with 2 for the same price?

Quite possibly.

The issue is the nuisance value of using a pair for a succession of long cuts. The joined-together combination is fragile. Doing the occasional long cut is fine, but if you have twenty to make in a hurry, well you can't. You have to think about how you're going to move the rails carefully or disconnect-reconnect them each time (which means the grub screws wear the alignment slots more).

That said, the rail bag will quite readily hide in the back of a wardrobe, and yes. it does make them easier to carry around (but not bomb proof - if you drop the bag on a corner, it will, most likely, crumple one or both of the rails inside).

Only you can really decide what works for you.

On the other stuff I can't comment really.

E.

PS: The long rail could 'hide' anywhere there's enough space though: e.g. on top of the kitchen units (in a plastic bag), or in the attic, high up along the wall of your garage or even under a floor. As long as you can get to it when you need to. You might even drill ecxtra holes and screw it to something!

 

[Sgian Dubh]

What I don't understand is why worm drive should be superior?

Not necessarily superior as I recall from my time living in the US, but right handed users also seemed to like the way they're balanced when used right handed ... the weight of the motor and the widest part of the base plate is, in most cases, over the piece being dimensioned. Slainte.