Circular saw safety

[Hugo_Wolfwhistle]

Hi,
I have moved to a new house, and I now have space for a small workshop. Previously I have just made do with a limited selection of tools, but now I have the space I was hoping to get some new equipment to make many tasks quicker/easier. I intend to use the workshop mainly for making furniture for the house and garden, as well as general DIY type stuff.

One of the most important things that I lack at the moment is a good saw for accurately cutting sheet goods and ripping (I already have a SCMS for cross cuts). I have already ruled out a table saw because I wouldn't be able to fit in a decent sized table saw and infeed/outfeed tables, and I don't feel safe working on small table saws to break down large sheet goods or very long boards.
I was therefore looking at a good quality circular saw (or plunge saw) to use with a track so that I could make high quaility, accurate cuts. My budget is less than £350 including the tracks.
For that price, I was considering the Makita SP6000 plunge saw, the Metabo KSE 68 plus, or the Bosch GKS 65 GCE, all of which I could use on Makita guide rails. Another alternative would be the Makita 5008MG on the EZ track system.

The main thing that concerns me though is that with the exception of the Metabo, all of these saws lack a riving knife. The last time I was buying circular saws, the majority seemed to have a riving knife and I was under the impression that it was a requirement in the EU. If this was the case, then clearly it isn't anymore as many saws (possibly the majority) now seem to lack a riving knife.
I thought a riving knife was an effective way of protecting against kickbacks, and whilst I understand that some kickbacks are caused by operator error, surely there is still the danger of kickback caused by the thick natural timber closing up the kerf as it is cut? I know some people never liked the riving knife, but surely it is better to be able to fit one if you like.

I have searched all over for a reason for the lack of riving knives on many modern saws, but couldn't find an answer.
Therefore I have the following questions;
1) Do the saws without a riving knife have some sort of other protections built in to mitigate the lack of knife? If so, what are they? The Metabo says it has a mechanical clutch to protect, but it still has a riving knife too.
2) Is a saw designed to not have a riving knife inherently less safe than a saw with one? Why do manufacturers like Makita make both?
3) If there is a kickback with a plunge saw like the Makita, does it just push the blade back up into the guard before it can possibly lift off the workpiece?
4) Does anyone know if the anti tilt catch on the Makita would prevent it lifting off the rail during a kickback?
5) Am I just being daft to worry about kickback on a hand held saw?

Also, if anyone has any thoughts, good or bad on the saws I am considering, then please let me know.

Cheers for any help

 

[Distinterior]

For the type of budget you have, and your description of your requirements, this would be a good choice...http://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product/4014 ... 400%20rail

It has got a riving knife, as does its predecessor the TS55 EBQ and its bigger brother the TS75 EBQ.

I know its only one rail at 1400mm long, but it is arguably the best saw for the work you describe.

Tim.

 

[JJ1]

Another vote for the Festool TS55. If your budget will stretch just a little further, I would invest in, or make your own, MFT top and get a set of Parf dogs. I00% accurate cuts every time with the TS55.

 

[petermillard]

Welcome to the forum. The type of kickback you describe is, IME, usually only found when plunge-cutting in thicker stock, e.g. sink cut-outs in a kitchen worktop; I think you're unlikely to encounter it in regular sheet-cutting - I certainly haven't in ~12 years of track saw use (Festool).

Re. Irving knives, I know Maffell say their saws are designed not to need one - perhaps the other manufacturers claim this as well? The Festool has a sprung Irving knife - slightly better price for that package at Powertool Supplies btw, here :- http://www.powertool-supplies.co.uk/fes ... -240v.html

I've only ever 'played with' the Makita saw, but I'm pretty sure there anti-tipping thing wouldn't stop kickback - it's certainly not designed to do that job.

HTH Pete

 

[Steve Maskery]

Given that MDF, plywood etc. does not have tension in it like timber does, the chances of the cut closing up behind the blade is tiny. I guess that is why they don't have one.
Ripping timber is a different matter entirely.

 

[monkeybiter]

5) Am I just being daft to worry about kickback on a hand held saw?

Not according to the 12" scar on my right knee! Having said that it was a borrowed saw and the first time I had ever used one. Didn't really know what I was doing. Entirely my own fault, plunge cutting floorboards. It's made me a lot more careful since, and it's now probably the tool I least like to use. Once bitten twice shy.

 

[Mar_mite]

Circular saws can kick back whilst cutting sheet goods if the workpiece isn't supported properly. My dewalt track saw does have a riving knife. I think they all do, they are sprung to allow the saw to be plunged.

 

[Hugo_Wolfwhistle]

Thanks for the quick replies and the recommendations/links.

I didn't think the Festool would be in my price range, but those deals are very tempting.
I have seen the Makita with 2x 1.4m rails and connectors for £301 at Lawson HIS. I was assuming that I would need 2 rails to be able to cut down a full size sheet of ply, and therefore assuming about £50 for an extra rail, plus £30 for connectors, that would put the TS55 at approximately £100 more than the Makita. Is the TS55 significantly better than the Makita? it looks a little lower powered and has a slightly smaller blade. Makita told me the SP6000 has about a 53mm depth of cut on the rails. Does the TS55 have as much depth of cut on the rails? On the other hand though, the Makita definitely doesn't have a riving knife.
Would it be easy enough to get away with using just 1 rail for the time being on the festool, and just do half the cut, then slide it along to complete the cut?

I should have said in my original post, I will be ripping natural boards too not just sheet goods. I realise that plunge cutting is a higher risk time for kickbacks, but are they still likely when just ripping natural timber? The sort of accident Monkeybiter mentioned is exactly what I was concerned about, although I don't think I will be doing many plunge cuts.
I tried asking Bosch and Makita about why they sometimes make saws without the riving knife, and they both just said that they didn't think they were really necessary and referred me to the kickback warnings in the instruction manuals which seem to be standard warnings for all manufacturers. It doesn't make much sense to me though, because they do put them on some saws, but not others.

The reason I was considering the Bosch GKS65GCE and Metabo KSE 68plus was because although they work in the track, I was thinking that because they are conventional saws, they might be more flexible for using off the tracks, as well as having a greater depth of cut. Are the plunge saws easy to use off the tracks as well as on?

Cheers again for all your advice.

 

[JJ1]

Does the TS55 have as much depth of cut on the rails?

The TS55's depth of cut is 50mm on the rail and 55mm without it.

 

[Steve Maskery]

I have a setting gauge for positioning my track. It references off the edge of the board. One gauge is for pieces wider than the track, the other is for ones narrower than the track.
You can set the track for half the cut and then move the track up. It's not as convenient, obviously, but it does save you a couple of hundred quid.
S

 

[GLFaria]

When I bought my most recent Bosch I went to the trouble of writing them asking why had they stopped including riving knives (which my previous one, some 30 years old, had) on their circular saws. Needless to say, being Bosch, they did'nt even bother to reply...

 

[petermillard]

The reason I was considering the Bosch GKS65GCE and Metabo KSE 68plus was because although they work in the track, I was thinking that because they are conventional saws, they might be more flexible for using off the tracks, as well as having a greater depth of cut. Are the plunge saws easy to use off the tracks as well as on?

In a pinch you can use a plunge saw off the rail - I've done it a few times but I wouldn't recommend it, and it's not how the saws are designed to be used. Hadn't realised the Bosch and Metabo were conventional circ. saws that can use a rail system; if you need the greater depth of cut, then you need it, though it puts you into a different neighbourhood with plunge saws e.g. Festool TS75 or the bigger Maffell. I had a quick look at a promotional video for the Bosch, and have to say that the dust collection doesn't look too clever - though obviously I've never used one, so perhaps someone else can chip in if they have??

FWIW I've used my TS55 with a standard blade for longish RIP cuts in 'real tree wood' on the rail at max. depth of cut without any issues; probably would have gone a bit quicker if I'd swapped out the standard blade for a ripping blade, but you know, 'it's only' one cut, 'I'll just' use what I have to hand. As an aside, those two phrases - "it's only" and "I'll just" - should set alarm bells ringing whenever they're heard/thought, especially in combination. All too frequently it means you're about to do something that you know you shouldn't, or could be done better and more safely by another means...

You can use a single rail to make a cut, then slide it along to make the second half of a long cut - again, it isn't ideal, but you can do it if you need to, though I'd guess that you won't make many such cuts before buying a second rail. In case you're not aware, the Makita and Festool rails are largely compatible with each other (the anti-tipping lip on the Makita rails can get in the way of some accessories) and the Makita rails can often be found a bit cheaper, though they don't have the range of sizes that Festool provide, and again, IME, the Makita rails aren't quite as good e.g. less 'grippy' stuff on the base.

HTH Pete

 

[Hugo_Wolfwhistle]

As an aside, those two phrases - "it's only" and "I'll just" - should set alarm bells ringing whenever they're heard/thought, especially in combination. All too frequently it means you're about to do something that you know you shouldn't, or could be done better and more safely by another means...

Ahh, how many times have I found that to be true! Usually resulting in a lot of time correcting the initial "short cut".

Sounds like you guys all really rate the Festool though, but the best I can find it with the 2 rails is £385 assuming I would need 2 rail connectors, which is really pushing my budget, but maybe it is a price worth paying for the riving knife. I suppose I was sort of hoping that the Makita would be good enough and that you guys would tell me the lack of riving knife as a non issue which would have made the decision easy!

Re. Irving knives, I know Maffell say their saws are designed not to need one - perhaps the other manufacturers claim this as well?

That is interesting about the Maffel, I think I found the press release you were talking about. I have sent an email to a couple of manufacturers and also to the HSE to see if any of them can tell me why they don't bother with riving knives anymore, so hopefully I will get some sort of response.
I did have a quick glance through the British Standard for circular saws, and the only difference I could see is that saws without the riving knife have to have a slightly faster blade/guard retraction time. Also read somewhere that it might be related to TCT blades being more common now, and less likely to kickback since the teeth are much wider than the blade body, but I don't know how true that is.

If your budget will stretch just a little further, I would invest in, or make your own, MFT top and get a set of Parf dogs. I00% accurate cuts every time with the TS55.

I can get access to a CNC machine so I had thought about making something very similar with some sort of t-tracks around the sides too.

if you need the greater depth of cut, then you need it, though it puts you into a different neighbourhood with plunge saws e.g. Festool TS75 or the bigger Maffell.

My requirement for depth of cut is really 50mm at the moment to go through rough sawn 2 by as a maximum. Given standard timber sizes, there aren't many standard thicknesses that the 190mm saws could cut that the Festool/Makita couldn't, although if the Festool can only just cut 50mm on the rail, then can it actually cut a rough sawn 2 by? Therefore I suppose the only real advantage to the greater depth of cut on the Metabo would be for cutting bevels which I probably wouldn't be doing too often in really thick stuff. Still, nice to have. The TS75 and Maffel are definitely out of my price range unfortunately.

On the down side, that Metabo doesn't maintain the cut same cut line when beveling on the track, so I would either have to replace the splinter strips, or not bevel on the rails with it.

 

[Sawyer]

5) Am I just being daft to worry about kickback on a hand held saw?

No, Hugo, you are not. The more powerful ones can kick like a mule and correct functioning of the guard is very important.

Being in the market, a while ago, for a good quality and hefty saw, I was on the point of buying a Bosch before - fortunately - noticing that it had no riving knife. To discover Bosch indulging in this dangerous folly came as quite a surprise and I promptly bought a Makita instead.

True, I use mine almost entirely on solid stock - ripping wane off prior to the table saw, so pinching is a frequent issue, but I cannot see any good reason why dispensing with the riving knife is advantageous even on sheet materials. I'm interested to learn the answer though, if anybody knows it?

Also worth remembering is that in extremis a riving knife would guard the back of the blade somewhat.

 

[MickCheese]

Kickback!

I have had kickback from my Makita track saw twice that I can remember.

As already said when not securing down the boards and this past weekend cutting 18mm 8x4 sheets. I plunged the saw into the start of the cut before it had spun up to full speed. Left a nasty scar across the track, at least it was only the track.

So from now on will make sure the motor is up to speed before plunging.

It maybe that the Festool run up to speed faster, would be interested to know.

Mick

 

[Eric The Viking]

Kickback!

I have had kickback from my Makita track saw twice that I can remember.

As already said when not securing down the boards and this past weekend cutting 18mm 8x4 sheets. I plunged the saw into the start of the cut before it had spun up to full speed. Left a nasty scar across the track, at least it was only the track.

So from now on will make sure the motor is up to speed before plunging.

It maybe that the Festool run up to speed faster, would be interested to know.

Mick

Me too, also an SP6000K.

In my case it was t+g chipboard flooring. I didn't do any damage to the rail though, only gouged the stock I was cutting.

I have used the anti-tip system a fair bit, and I'm not sure I'd want to use it as a kickback preventer.

When it happened to me, the saw came mainly straight up. That was OK, as it pushed back into the guard (mainly). If the back of the rail had been engaged it would have tipped backwards, potentially 'baring its teeth' if you see what I mean.

Mick is spot on - sharp blade, care, and wating for full speed before plunging are all the key things. These aren't toys.

I really like my Makita (made in the UK, incidentally), BUT a dull blade is a lot more awkward than a proper sharp one. I've now got two fine-tooth ones, so I can swap over as soon as one goes off - finishing the job without being tempted to force a blunted blade.

My local branch of Leitz tooling will sharpen them for a lot less than replacement cost, so it's worth it. I think you can get 5 or 8 resharpens out of a blade, as long as you don't let it get too bad in between.

Cheers,

E.

 

[Hugo_Wolfwhistle]

Cheers for sharing the experiences of the SP6000. So both of those kickbacks were whilst plunging, so I suppose the riving knife wouldn't have helped there anyway. I have always hated doing plunge cuts with a normal circular saw, and sounds like they can still be a little risky even with the plunge saws. Luckilly I don't need to do them often.

The more powerful ones can kick like a mule and correct functioning of the guard is very important.

I am also lucky enough that I haven't personally experienced kickbacks on a circular saw in the past, but when looking for the new saw I have seen/read/heard of a lot of horror stories. I am curious though, are kickbacks on the smaller saws, like the 165mm and 190mm controllable when they happen? or are they far too quick/powerful to reliably control?

Me too, also an SP6000K.

In my case it was t+g chipboard flooring. I didn't do any damage to the rail though, only gouged the stock I was cutting.

I have used the anti-tip system a fair bit, and I'm not sure I'd want to use it as a kickback preventer.

When it happened to me, the saw came mainly straight up. That was OK, as it pushed back into the guard (mainly). If the back of the rail had been engaged it would have tipped backwards, potentially 'baring its teeth' if you see what I mean.

Interesting that on the plunge saw the kickback pushed the blade straight up into the retracted position. Makita's response to my question on regarding the lack of knife on the SP6000 was just that they say because it is a plunge saw, it doesn't count as a circular saw and therefore doesn't need a knife! Seems like a technicality to me though and not a proper answer. Maybe they feel that plunge saws retract before they can jump back, although clearly MickCheese's rails would disagree!
Good to know your thoughts on the anti-tilt lock though, I only asked because I wondered if it could work like those anti-kickback stops for the festool that hook on the back of the saw.

Another thing, if plunge saw kickbacks do push the blade and saw up, then surely the anti-kickback gizmo on the Dewalt track saw wouldn't achieve much as it only appears to stop it sliding back whilst on the rail, so as soon as it lifts off, it would surely be useless wouldn't it?

When I bought my most recent Bosch I went to the trouble of writing them asking why had they stopped including riving knives (which my previous one, some 30 years old, had) on their circular saws. Needless to say, being Bosch, they did'nt even bother to reply...

When I asked Bosch the same thing last week, at first they sounded quite confused by the question, and then they came to the conclusion that if they didn't have knives on their saws anymore and because they reckon their saws are the best, then riving knives were useless and unnecessary. I asked if they had any other safety device instead, but they said no. Put me completely off their saws to be honest, which is a shame as the GKS65 GCE otherwise looks like pretty good fit for my needs.

Still waiting for an answer from Makita about the lack of knife on the 5008MG and HS7100 when they have it on their other saws, they normally are very quick at answering questions, but in this case they have been silent for over a week.

Cheers

 

[Phil Pascoe]

So Bosch don't respond to you, GL? It' Makita that don't respond to me.

 

[dm65]

Must be a new 'feature' on the Bosch saws then (and yes, that is a Bosch approved pencil)

 

[GLFaria]

So Bosch don't respond to you, GL? It' Makita that don't respond to me.

Well, to be honest, I have only been waiting for a couple years or so. Maybe in another couple years...