Buying a bigger bandsaw...

[ondablade]

Hi guys. Just an update on the bandsaw saga. As in the 'drift' thread the Scheppach is sold, and I'm looking for a new saw. I've been off trawling other forums for information.

The plan is to end up with 13in+ of consistently high quality (flat and smooth) hardwood resaw and ripping capacity using up to 35mm carbide tipped blades (they need a lot of tension), with general purpose profiling and joint cutting etc with blades down to 6mm too.

This video by Minimax USA shows what the Italian saws (in this case the US market(?) MM 16) can do, there's a pretty convincing veneer cutting demo from about 1/4 distance onwards with other types of work later. http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?op ... tlink&id=7

After lots of digging it all seems to be gravitating towards either a used heavy duty Italian (there's a fairly new NRA 600 Aggazani to be had, but not a lot else as the Centauros followed up were either lighter duty models, or a bit rough in the case of a CO600), or a new 4kW made in Taiwan Holzkraft HBS 533S (350mm vertical capacity) or just possibly the 4kW HBS 633S (400mm vertical capacity) model - the same basic machines as the Axminster AP5300HD3 and AP6300HD3 but with a few extras. (it looks like Grizzly in the US offer the same models too with a few bolt on changes)

A good used Italian and the bigger Holzkraft new would cost about the same, with the latter from Germany via a local Irish distributor. The 21in 533S is about €500 less.

There's not much around here by way of Wadkins and the like, the two offered were very tired.

The big issue is that while the Italians are a tried and tested route in the US for deep resawing, the Holzkraft/Grizzly is better specified, has some nice features, and is very nicely made. It's next to impossible to get experience based feedback about the Holzkraft/Axminster or even the almost identical big heavy duty Grizzly's used for the same sort of work the Italians are used for though.

The issue seems to be that the saws are industrial sizes where the heavy duty models of the Italians are prevalent, especially for deep resawing where they are pretty much the benchmark. There's a lot of prejudice (maybe some genuine caution too) about the Grizzly saws - most just defending their Italian saws. Yet the few reviews on the big industrial Grizzlys that come up are very positive. It all means though there's not that much information about on forums about them.

It's very tough to separate the machines off spec sheets, there's so many subtleties they don't capture. So it's sit and wait and see what pops up for a while I think...

 

[devonwoody]

I have seen this bandsaw in action, but it is a tad too large for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Nhq5swos8

 

[ondablade]

That Hammer is reportedly a really great package for the money DW, especially now that it's got 4hp. It's a little smaller than is the plan though, and Felder's bigger models quickly get expensive...

 

[woodguy7]

How much is the Hammer ?

 

[ondablade]

Last I saw it was if I remember correctly to be had for just under £1,000 on a Summer special. This possibly was to run out at the end of July....

ian

 

[woodguy7]

Thanks Ian.

I am looking at this size of Bandsaw. Do you know how it compares against the Startrite 502e which can take a 35mm blade ?

Thanks, Woodguy.

 

[ondablade]

No WG, but it should be on the Hammer section of the Felder UK site. It's probably something approaching 25mm.

If my local guy is to be believed he has a joinery works customer who routinely uses one to rip 9in wide stock in half (9in deep rip cut) to make stair treads.

I think blade speed in metres/min is worth checking too - my guess is that if it's too much below say 1,300m/min it'll be getting a bit slow for this sort of work. It probably has the HP to run it. 800m/min is quite slow in deep rips judging by the Scheppach I've just sold...

 

[Benchwayze]

That Hammer is a mean looking bandsaw. Looks like it would out perform my Startrite 351 for sure.. Maybe a Domino isn't so important after all!

:lol:

John

 

[Mike.C]

The Axminster Plus AP4300T/1 is another saw to look at. If you are not in a rush I am part way through a review which will give you all the in's and out's of what seems so far a very good bandsaw. There are other members who have the previous model the SBW 4300.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Whitesnake]

Check out the clips on the Hammer bandsaw:

www.felder-group.co.uk/gb-en/video/hammer-n4400.html

www.felder-group.co.uk/gb-en/video/hamm ... tml?part=2

It can take up to a 25mm blade

Sorry, Yes, I do work for Felder!

 

[Whitesnake]

I'm not sure if I have done something wrong/naughty by posting links? Sorry in advance if I have.

 

[9fingers]

I'm not sure if I have done something wrong/naughty by posting links? Sorry in advance if I have.

This isthe effect of the auto spam trap that stops externals links being posted until the send has sent in 4 messages. It will go away then.
Don't worry.
In the meantime I'll post them for you

Bob

 

[9fingers]

Check out the clips on the Hammer bandsaw:

www.felder-group.co.uk/gb-en/video/hammer-n4400.html

www.felder-group.co.uk/gb-en/video/hamm ... tml?part=2

It can take up to a 25mm blade

Sorry, Yes, I do work for Felder!

 

[Whitesnake]

Thank you 9fingers. I'd thought I'd committed some forum sin and was about to be banned for life!

 

[ondablade]

Thanks WS, the N4400 is so far as I can tell a lot of bandsaw for the money - a spectacularly good deal in fact.

Hi Mike. Looking forward to hear how you get on with the Axminster Plus AP4300T/1. It's a bit lighter than the 5300HD and 6300HD models, but should be a very good benchmark. If it can resaw 12in fairly comfortably it bodes very well for the capability of the bigger saws.

Re. my own situation i've given my local guy a requirements document, and asked him to verify the capability of the above. He's talking to Germany or Taiwan, i'm not sure which.

ian

 

[markymark12]

Well it seems you have done lots of research i take my hat of to you.

For my 2 cents worth, i have had in the past a felder 540 and to be honest i was not impressed with it. It quickly got resold and i brought from Daltons a serviced Wadkin Bursgreen BZB, cost me less than the Felder at the time and leaves any other machine i have used in its wake. I have resawn 13" wenge with it in the past without a problem. Mind if you really want what must be one of the best bandsaws of all time i would look for a wadkin DR, i would have got one but i did not have the height for it. If that is not a problem for you then you would be hard pushed to beat it and it goes to a 2" band.

Good luck with the hunt.

 

[ondablade]

Thanks Mark. TBH i've done a fair amount of digging, but it's very hard to get to good information, and after that even harder to find a way to get set up at a reasonable cost.

The big advantage of the Holzkraft saw (very close to the Axminster AP 5300HD, but with more motor, and possibly fancier guides) is that i can have what looks like a very solid 305kg new saw that'll run up to a 35mm carbide blade with 4kW, ceramic guides and 350mm of vertical cutting height for around €2,000. As above i'm waiting for them to come back to confirm its resaw and general capability.

I find it strange, but it seems that most saws are bought over here off fairly minimalist literature on a wing and a prayer for general use. The owners of several big Italians offered for sale have needed to go off and get nameplate data for me, and didn't seem to be aware that there's usually two lines of saw above 16in in their catalogues - a HD model, and a more general duty model.

My specifying a resaw requirement seems to have thrown the Holzkraft importer into a state of confusion. He's rising to it, but it's obviously not typical. Must be my inexperience or something that means i can't figure what it'll do by kicking the tyres!

The Wadkin Bursgreen/UK route has been suggested several times before - but in fairly general terms. From what you and others say it sounds like it's a serious option for deep resawing - that these machines can go head to head with modern Italian and other heavy duty resaw bandsaws.

There's not so many over here, and those that come up are usually very tired. The other issue is that there's so many models - some presumably might suit, and some not. I have to admit to a slight tendency to think of them as being a little archaic too, but that may be a mistake. Motor KW and vertical capacity seem a little small for the machine/wheel size, but that's maybe because they are real horses or something.

I haven't quite reached that stage yet, but maybe in a while i'll set up some visits with suppliers and drop over to the UK for a day or two to look at some machines....

ian

 

[markymark12]

Hi Ian

The most important part of any bandsaw is the frame which is why i favour old iron frame types myself. I have used allsorts over the years and still come back to the Wadkin DR as top of my list. They are not hard to come by here inthe uk and even from a main dealer such as Daltons you can pick them up for around £2000 to £3000, which is big money for them really and they can be found for less with a bit of searching. I am sure you could get one shipped without too much hastle. Everyones keen to do deals these days. Have a look here although lots of dealers will have them, check out the frame. http://www.daltonsmachines.com/osb/item ... 915-mm-(36)-Bandsaw_251

 

[ondablade]

Thanks for the link to the DR 915 Mark. That's one big pipper of a machine! It's not cheap, but presumably there's at least 25% margin on a dealer price like that.

It'd be a very hard call from where i stand, in that i have no local access to others using similar kit. i.e. if you've been around them all your life it makes it different. My perceptions are shaped by my experiences with 1950s/60s British made motorcycles - great character, and effective in their day - but with lots of built in bugs. (it was before the age of total quality) These bugs can be sorted by a specialist, but at a cost - and it still doesn't perform like a modern bike. So there's a whole host of questions that come to mind.

Some pros and cons:

It's got 5hp, so it should have the grunt to handle deep resawing. How do they do with wide blades (e.g. 35mm) on resawing, and can they run a narrow say 1/4in blade for profiling?

It looks so different to the typical modern fabricated steel frame bandsaw, but cast iron presumably delivers the usual benefits there too. That big rib sticking out the back of the pillar looks a bit odd until you see from the other side that it's part of the T section main frame.

The 'unknown' is the big barrier for me on something like that. Like maybe they were designed so long ago that there's stuff like e.g. carbide blades they can't handle? Can they hold stable set-ups, and do they perform consistently/repeatably at that? What craps out on them? Then there's stuff like spares availability and pricing, does it have decent guides and dust collection, what sort of wheel camber does it have (re handling wide and narrow blades), and so on.

To take the devil's advocate position. It'd be tough to pay the price of a decent modern saw and more, and end up spending a fortune on parts for repair and upgrades, and still find it had built in shortcomings....

Or is this to be too cautious? Does experience say the cast iron delivers enough to swallow some disadvantages, and pay extra for vs. e.g. a high end heavy duty Italian stallion?

 

[houtslager]

if you get the chance to grab one under 2,5k then grab one, they are worth their weight in gold those bandsaws.
Points to check ,as with ALL bandsaws-
wheel bearings upper and lower
saw guides
table mounting bracket
wheel rubbers
motor and its mounting.
I have often retro mounted under the table an old shoe brush to clean the bandsaw before it goes onto the lower wheel. I have also seen retro fitted DE at this point to, imho a very good improvement.

hth

K