Brexit The Movie

[lurker]

"Without the EU, travelling across the continent could become more troublesome"
That's not scaremongering, of course.

You mean you are frightened if immigrants?
On the whole they seem to be a good thing - their country's loss is our gain.
The out of EU immigration issue would be better dealt with by the EU en masse rather than state by state. Share the burden - in so far as it is a burden - historically immigration has almost always been a huge economic benefit.
I look forwards to immigrants arriving in our village. So far we have a handful (dozen or so total) of Germans, Dutch, Polish, Romanian, French. All lively bunch of hard working intelligent people highly welcome. We also have a few Scots, Welsh, Irish, people from Yorkshire. :roll:
By way of balance there seems to be a great number of Brits living /working abroad. Millions nationally. God elp us we don't want them all sent back here - moaning about the weather, the food and wine!

You might change your tune if you lived in Boston or Spalding or kings Lynne.
Anyway Jacob is an "in" so is BB automatically an "out"
Just wondering

 

[Rhossydd]

I cant see how we can pull out later if we want. It seems to me to be a once only chance to leave.

By the same mechanism that we could now. However if the country was stupid enough to leave, rejoining would be far, far harder when the economic chaos had taken it's toll.

He also suggests that most people have a very weak grasp of the economic arguments and very little knowledge, and not much desire to further that knowledge either. He surmised that most people will vote based on emotive reasons and that this (as an overall project) is not a very smart way to make such fundamental decisions.

This is the really scary part. So many people that don't understand the issues and won't make any effort to learn, will be be allowed to wreck the country's economy.

 

[Jacob]

[
You might change your tune if you lived in Boston or Spalding or kings Lynne.
Anyway Jacob is an "in" so is BB automatically an "ou...

I blame the employers, gangmasters, landlords, lack of trade union protection, lack of council housing, etc, etc.
Last people I would blame are the immigrants - I'd apologise to them for the sh|t state of our country.
I also benefit from the cheap fruit and veg they pick. Apparently there'd be a serious prob if they weren't there doing the work.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I cant see how we can pull out later if we want. It seems to me to be a once only chance to leave.

UK can pull out any time with 2 years notice. BUT as now it will take 10 years to unravel and rebuild outside the EU.
I'm for remaining. The Brexit film, as far as I watched, was citing 47 laws for a bathroom - I can understand that you need standardisation so that UK manufactures can sell to the whole EU and benefit from selling to the whole market on one production run.

EU legislation is lead a lot of the time by UK Govt and companies, been very close to it at one time.

Brian

The standardisation to sell to the EU is fine - but I have to comply with expensive EU regulations even if I only sell to Bolivia or Mongolia.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"This is the really scary part. So many people that don't understand the issues and won't make any effort to learn, will be be allowed to wreck the country's economy."
As someone pointed out in The Times the other day - if you want three opinions, ask two economists. That given argument works both ways of course.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"Without the EU, travelling across the continent could become more troublesome"
That's not scaremongering, of course.

You mean you are frightened if immigrants?
On the whole they seem to be a good thing - their country's loss is our gain.
The out of EU immigration issue would be better dealt with by the EU en masse rather than state by state. Share the burden - in so far as it is a burden - historically immigration has almost always been a huge economic benefit.
I look forwards to immigrants arriving in our village. So far we have a handful (dozen or so total) of Germans, Dutch, Polish, Romanian, French. All lively bunch of hard working intelligent people highly welcome. We also have a few Scots, Welsh, Irish, people from Yorkshire. :roll:
By way of balance there seems to be a great number of Brits living /working abroad. Millions nationally. God elp us we don't want them all sent back here - moaning about the weather, the food and wine!

Could you please tell me where immigrants were mentioned?
By the bye. If they are an economic benefit, why is our bill going up? (The amount not being publicised til after the referendum, note) to help pay for the "immigrant CRISIS" (as widely reported). We have Polish language notices in the schools (and Polish language "Shoplifters Will Be Prosecuted" notices in the market). I have nothing but admiration for them, but the system that keeps our council estates full of people sitting on their buttocks while importing unskilled labour is bizarre, to say the least.

 

[harvestbarn]

Any large company would not be allowed to operate without audited accounts cannot see why the EU should be an exception.

I think at the last referendum we were mislead we thought we were joining a Common Market not a super state where even the MEP`s cannot draft or change laws without the unelected bureaucrats agreeing to it first.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"By the same mechanism that we could now. However if the country was stupid enough to leave, rejoining would be far, far harder when the economic chaos had taken it's toll."
Why would we wish to rejoin the only continent in the world whose economy is decreasing? (and I don't mean geographically, before some clown comments )

 

[DiscoStu]

I find the economic thing one of the biggest reasons for leaving where would we be if we'd have gone in for the euro?

I started out completely on the fence but as time has gone I've moved towards exiting. Part of the reason for that is that the in campaign fails to give me good reasons for staying in and only scare mongers the exit campaign. I would like the UK to control its own borders. I would like our courts to decide when we want to eject someone from our country and not be overruled by Brussels. I think the trade argument has its place but we are not going to stop trading with other countries. They want our business.

I struggle to see what the disadvantages of leaving really are.




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[Rhossydd]

If they are an economic benefit, why is our bill going up? (The amount not being publicised til after the referendum, note) to help pay for the "immigrant CRISIS"

You're confusing immigrants with refugees.

Try reading this, don't worry there's no scary big words;
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 26796.html

 

[Rhossydd]

As someone pointed out in The Times the other day - if you want three opinions, ask two economists.

Except that most economists across the globe are saying that Britain leaving the EU will be a bad thing, not only for the UK, but for global economics.
OBR, BoE, IMF......

"The Times" as owned by Rupert Murdoch.
"A quote in the Anthony Hilton column for the Evening Standard, may give pause for thought as to how you vote in the EU referendum and otherwise:
"I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'"

 

[Rhossydd]

I find the economic thing one of the biggest reasons for leaving where would we be if we'd have gone in for the euro?

But we didn't. Gordon Brown refused.

I struggle to see what the disadvantages of leaving really are.

The stock market dropping (Got a pension fund or ISA ? that's linked to the stock market, you'll have less). House prices dropping, inflation rising whilst the economy stagnates leaving you poorer, fall of the pound (more expensive imported goods, more expensive foreign travel), higher interest rates, lack of inward investment by foreign companies so less good jobs.
But don't worry; there'll be a lot of demand for vegetable pickers and cleaners when there's no cheap transient labour from Europe to do the nasty work, so your children will at least have jobs.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If they are an economic benefit, why is our bill going up? (The amount not being publicised til after the referendum, note) to help pay for the "immigrant CRISIS"

You're confusing immigrants with refugees.

Try reading this, don't worry there's no scary big words;
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 26796.html

There really is no need to be insulting. I can think of plenty of things i'd like to insult you for, but refrain.

 

[Roughcut]

I find the economic thing one of the biggest reasons for leaving where would we be if we'd have gone in for the euro?

But we didn't. Gordon Brown refused.

I struggle to see what the disadvantages of leaving really are.

The stock market dropping (Got a pension fund or ISA ? that's linked to the stock market, you'll have less). House prices dropping, inflation rising whilst the economy stagnates leaving you poorer, fall of the pound (more expensive imported goods, more expensive foreign travel), higher interest rates, lack of inward investment by foreign companies so less good jobs.
But don't worry; there'll be a lot of demand for vegetable pickers and cleaners when there's no cheap transient labour from Europe to do the nasty work, so your children will at least have jobs.

To be honest your replies to other posters in this thread come across as condescending.
Yes of course leaving the Eurozone would lead us to charging import duty on goods within the EU which currently are not applicable and more expensive travel within the EU.
However what facts and evidence can you provide that the rest of what you have written is true and correct?

 

[DiscoStu]

I don't see how the demand for housing will go down if we were to leave? And is house prices dropping actually an issue maybe it would help those that need to buy a house?

Leaving the EU will not cut us off from Europe. Switzerland isn't in the EU and neither is Norway but they both trade and live within Europe without an issue.

I suspect the stock market may well take a hit, but for how long? We are not talking about a decision that is for a couple of years, this is a decision that will affect our society for decades. I'm 42 and in my lifetime I've seen the UK gradually loose it's control and some of its identity. I'm not against immigration and I'm not against helping refugees but I do think we should be able to do it on our terms. If Europe was fair and each country took a proportional amount of refugees then I'd be pretty happy with that but understandably the refugees are coming to the wealthier economies with free health services so we are one of the countries hit with the impact.

I find the economic argument difficult to swallow, even if there are some downward trends, they won't be for long. Our economy isn't as linked to Europe as it could be and I for one am glad that we are not in the euro. So being independent has worked for us there so why not elsewhere?

I really did start completely on the fence with this and if anything was more for the stay in campaign but as time has gone on I just can't see the reasons to stay other than the fear of the unknown. If we are afraid of the unknown, then we really aren't backing ourselves as a country. It's about time we got a little more patriotic in this county. I don't want to sound like a daily mail reader but a little bit more belief in Britain would be nice to see. As a nation we have a huge amount to be proud of and I don't want to see that eroded away any further.


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[DiscoStu]

Can I also just say, just because someone offers a different opinion to you, it doesn't make them an silly person or even wrong, so please try and respect each other's views without resorting to being rude. In fact when we resort to that it shows we have little else to offer in the debate.


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[Phil Pascoe]

" I just can't see the reasons to stay other than the fear of the unknown."
If we vote to stay in, we're voting for the unknown. We've already heard that proposed increases in our membership are not to be announced until our referendum, and what will happen as even more European economies go down the Swanee? Albania? Why not? We've a capital full of Romanian crooks already - why not more? (50% of crime on the underground is committed by immigrants and 90% of cashpoint crime by Romanians - fact, not prejudice). What happens with millions of immigrants when Germany decides it's had enough and gives them European ID papers? Hungary issued 500,000 passports knowing full well that the recipients would move to other EU Countries. Seventy five million Turks with EU wide travel papers? Might bring down the cost of kebabs, I suppose.

 

[Jacob]

So it was fear of immigrants then! :lol:
Yes a minority of people on the edge (for whatever reason) may turn to crime, but it's easy to forget that big crime in Britain is done via the city and offshore. The super rich are mega powerful and being in the EU is one way we can gather enough power to control them. Out and they are more powerful than us - as we see in London where they dominate the property market.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Roughcut - thanks for posting 'Brexit - the Movie'. It does seem to be less hysterical than much of what is currently passing for public debate.

Brexit for me.

As one of the Little People, I'd much rather be in a system in which the governing are accountable to the governed through the ballot box. I have virtually no political power, but I do have one vote, and at least under the current Westminster system, if enough of my fellow citizens think a current government is failing, it can be changed by electing another. Also, because the governing depend on public votes for their office, they do have to take some notice of public opinion occasionally.

Not so with the EU system. Our votes only give us the right to elect members to a talking-shop, one with no authority, or with no history of using any authority it might theoretically have to hold the decision-makers to account. The real decision makers are the unelected Commissioners (and the armies of even more unelected bureaucrats churning out regulations for everything), appointed by - well, who exactly? - and utterly unaccountable to those over whom they govern.

As for all the economic arguments - well, economists have to revise their forecasts of the economy for three months ahead, never mind years ahead. All these clever economists told us we'd be better off in the Euro, and turned out to be wrong. None of these clever economists accurately forecast the 2008 crash. Their 'forecasts' are at best blind guesses, and at worst outright propaganda in their own interests. In truth, nobody knows what the economic future holds, in or out of the EU.

The polls are quite interesting. Allister Heath in the Telegraph pointed out the other day that Project Fear has been been in full swing for some weeks, with predictions of economic meltdown, wars and all sorts of other horrors if we vote to leave, but the polls have not changed at all. For whatever reason, the general public are not swallowing it. Telephone and internet polls tend to give rather different results, too. Most people I talk to say pretty much the same thing; they're disgusted by the standard of public debate so far, from both sides. It's becoming increasingly clear that anybody looking for 'facts' in the debate is going to be sorely disappointed, or will have to go and find them for themselves. What 'factual' information I have seen has been pretty neutral on economics, ditto on security, and fairly consensual that short term differences will be slight, and the longer term is not very predictable.

Thus, for me, it comes down to being able to vote for those seeking to govern. Over the longer term, governments accountable to those electing them will act more in the interests of us than governments unaccountable to the electorate. Hence, Brexit.

 

[Droogs]

Rhossydd yuo stated:
The stock market dropping (Got a pension fund or ISA ? that's linked to the stock market, you'll have less). - This will only affect people in the short term. The first 5 years or so. Regardless of world events there is not a single stock market in the world which is worth less than in the past. They always rise over the long term, increased population sees to that in higher demand for goods and the steady increase of goods swells the the general wealth.


House prices dropping + so your children will at least have jobs - Regardless of what the job is they will at least be in a position to afford a home and should mean even less people being homeless.

inflation rising whilst the economy stagnates - Europe is the only major economic area that has a stagnating economy everywhere else is growing and as the poorer areas catch up to Europe's living standards the Eu's will only stagnate more


fall of the pound (more expensive imported goods, more expensive foreign travel), higher interest rates, lack of inward investment by foreign companies so less good jobs - this country is blessed with a huge pool of highly educated innovative people who are sought out by foreign companies to man their R+D which by and large is based in the UK. Take the motor industry for example. It would also encourage Brits to by British


But don't worry; there'll be a lot of demand for vegetable pickers and cleaners when there's no cheap transient labour from Europe to do the nasty work - East European workers have been coming to the UK for this type of work for as long as they have been able to travel, even with tighter border controls - if someone has a job to go to then they would be allowed in to work.

I personally am on the stay side of the fence in general but can see the the advantages on the other. For me the greatest reason to leave is the undemocratic nature of the EU and it's unaccountability to the populace as a whole. There should be no decision making/power post that is not directly elected by the people. I admit that I have moved slightly more to the leave side due to the likely-hood of this position never changing unless something drastic happens. The EU as a free market and movement area is great but as an all powerfull "federal" autocracy it is not