Best extractor?

[LFS19]

Hi,

I've decided to bite the bullet and get myself a good dust extractor.
I was hoping the good people here could help me with some recomendations.

I've had a look around and come across the Record line, which seem to be popular.
Screw fix sell these two: http://www.screwfix.com/c/auto-cleaning ... on=compare

I don't really know what I need In terms of dust extraction. (Nor weather record is the best for the money)
That is, I don't know weather features of a more expensive model versus a less expensive one would be necessary or not.
For example, the more expensive of the record model in that link is significant more powerful judging by the wattage, but weather I'll actually need that amount of power I don't know.

I'm basically looking for something that's going to aid greatly in eliminating the harmful dust particles from use with power tools, and something that's going to keep the work shop as clean as possible.
An emphasis on eliminating the dust particles, as I'm quite fearful of long term damage. (I'll also be purchasing some higher quality salty head gear to replace my mask, maybe a power respirator like the trend Airshield)

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Many thanks.

 

[Shrubby]

You should be looking at M-CLASS
It's been a British standard for 17 years
Matt

 

[LFS19]

You should be looking at M-CLASS
It's been a British standard for 17 years
Matt

I'll have a look, thanks.

 

[AJB Temple]

M Class is an HSE / EU standard. Aimed at construction dust I believe.

To get useful advice you will need to say what machinery you are using (chips versus dust) and what materials you are working on (some are more of a dust issue than others) and whether you wish to have a fixed or mobile installation, what volumes you are dealing with etc. There is rarely a single solution that deals with all dust and chip problems. The guide that Record publish is actually a helpful starting point for deciding what type of dust extraction you need, irrespective of whether or not you choose one of their brands. I would start there and do some googling before expanding on your question.

 

[LFS19]

M Class is an HSE / EU standard. Aimed at construction dust I believe.

That seemed to be what I dug up online,

T

o get useful advice you will need to say what machinery you are using (chips versus dust) and what materials you are working on (some are more of a dust issue than others) and whether you wish to have a fixed or mobile installation, what volumes you are dealing with etc. There is rarely a single solution that deals with all dust and chip problems. The guide that Record publish is actually a helpful starting point for deciding what type of dust extraction you need, irrespective of whether or not you choose one of their brands. I would start there and do some googling before expanding on your question.

The tools I'd be using would be drills, sanders, my band saw, miter saw, circular saw and hand power planer.
In terms of material it varies - I'd say 80% of the time I use pine, very often pallet wood and reclaimed wood at the moment, and the other 20% would be oak and very occasionally MDF.
I'm only really a hobbyist in furnature making, I do everything in my garage with a workshop I've set up in there.

Should've elaborated more, my apologies.
I'll have a look for that guide,

Thanks

 

[beech1948]

LFS19,

I have hesitated about making this post but here goes:-

1) Many of the "bag" type dust extraction machines are so poor as to be a waste of money. eg the Record 2600 alswo sold by Sheppach. Too little air flow and the bags let too much dust back into the workshop.
2) The best place for a chip collecter DC is outside the workshop but then you lose all of the warm air you have in winter.
3) An airflow of 100 to 120 litres per minute is a MINIMUM that not too many machines can reach
4) Most if not all sellers of DE machines hide this through using as many differing ways of measuring airflow as they can. There is no standard, no commonality so that it becomes a buyer beware situation. Try to insist on a standard in writing. eg Record now use liters/per second which is not easy to calculate as cubic meters...one is volume measurement and th other is length measurement qubed.
5) A DX4000/5000 from Record is just about the minimum acceptable.
6) A modern DE machine consists of a sucker with an intermediate dropbox...dust deputy or Thien separator....placed in front of it. The DE machine would need to have a top cyclindrical filter added to replace the leaky bags.
7) There would be some suction loss due to the dropbox...whatever type....so you would need to increase the suction rate to 120 l/min at least.
8) 5 micron sounds like a small particle but in reality it is quite large and if these particles are being thrown back into circulation they will do a lot of damage to your lungs. A better target is capture down to 3 micron as this covers 98% of all particles.
9) Wear a 3M 7500 half face mask with either P2 or preferably P3 filters and replace them regularly. For further protection have a look in Screfix for a full face mask wether you are a turner or not.
10) Add a ceiling mounted airfilter which you can make yourself cheaply using filters from Heating and Ventilation sources.

The next problem you face is that of cost. The low air flow units exist only to sell to those who can not afford a better unit and know no better. Ignore those who shout about these and follow the numbers as these are impartial. If you want to see some embarassed employees start asking detailed questions about airflow and what their machine can do and then ask for them to put that in writing..yeh.

DE is a best done at source and thougth about as capture at source. So a chip DE and a dust DE which is portable around the workshop. Enclose an SCMS and have a dust outlet at the bottom of the enclosure as these spurt dust everywhere to the rear.

Read a lot before you you buy and don't buy in a hurry.

Al

 

[eoinsgaff]

Excellent post Beech1948, this issue continues to bother me as the quality of machinery available for this work is very poor.

For the **** of it I did about an hour online one evening, imagining an unlimited budget, and failed to find anything of consequence. I was hoping for a cyclone where the air outlet could be blown out through a opening in the wall. Or anything similar.

The US market seems much better equipped.

Could someone give James Dyson a call...

 

[LFS19]

Thanks very much for that post.
It seems this is going to be a far more daunting and expensive endeavour than I thought it would be..

Does this mean no one can get into woodworking and be truly safe doing so without spending a small fortune?

 

[AJB Temple]

No it doesn't. I am going through similar deliberations myself as I am upgrading my systems. The reality is that you will need to make some compromises and pick the best extraction you can get for your budget and your tools. You also need to be realistic about how much dust you are actually producing: as a home hobbyist this may not be a great deal compared with a trade workshop operating daily, so your overall exposure may be much less anyway. Good quality face masks will make a big difference anyway (as long as you use them diligently and remember that airborne dust hangs around for a while).

 

[LFS19]

No it doesn't. I am going through similar deliberations myself as I am upgrading my systems. The reality is that you will need to make some compromises and pick the best extraction you can get for your budget and your tools. You also need to be realistic about how much dust you are actually producing: as a home hobbyist this may not be a great deal compared with a trade workshop operating daily, so your overall exposure may be much less anyway. Good quality face masks will make a big difference anyway (as long as you use them diligently and remember that airborne dust hangs around for a while).

That's understandable. Im very rarely working with the REALLY harmful stuff like MDF, also. In fact, I can only think of one instance I've ever used it.
Beck mentioned the 3M masks - I'm wondering if something like the Trend Airshield at around £200 would be a good alternative and then some less expensive dust extraction..

Thanks

 

[Beau]

Can highly recommend this from Yorkleen http://yorkleen.co.uk/documents/product ... Extractors

Not cheap but great for fine dust plus enough suck to run a 12" thicknesses. Had it probably 15 years and other some new brushes and filters it's been perfect. Not the largest bag for chip but adapted ours to take a dustbin.

 

[Mark A]

PWM have an interesting range of extractors.

It may be worth calling them for advice anyway?

http://www.pwm-sales.co.uk/results.asp?Category=40&offset=0

 

[beech1948]

LFS19,

I think your first buy should be a 3M half face mask with at a minimum P2 filters ( prefer P3 myself) and wear it when cutting, sanding, grinding etc etc. I would also buy a full face mask from Screwfix at about £8 or so.

Then I would buy a workshop vac for fine dust capture ( its been suggested that the Lidl one or similar is OK but I have not used one so maybe search on here) and later add a Dust Deputy sort of thing to it..

If you have a P/T or Table Saw or Bandsaw then you will need a chip collector preferably one without a bag. Have a look at record DX4000 or Yorkleen or Camvac.....2 motors and a 4" hose connection.

That weould get you started fairly cheaply, especially if you build your own airfilter.

I am assuming that you have or will have typical hobby machines. If your kit is larger than hobby stuff you will need to upgrade.

Good luck

Al

 

[deema]

I may be wrong, but apart from the chop saw and the band saw everything else you've suggested is a hand tool. The mitre saw and band saw will not in general create much dust, the sanders will be the most 'dirty' items that you are using. This looks like a hobby use of tools, in which case as I suspect most of the tools you've mentioned will have some form of chip / dust collectors already the most effective, and cheapest solution IMO would be to buy yourself a something like the Trend Airshield system, and keep the place where you are doing the work well ventilated.

There is no such thing as 'safe' dust but it's all about the extent of exposure as you can't avoid it in all walks of life.

If you do decide to go for a central dust extraction system, the Startrite system is the best value I believe, it has a lot of extraction for the money STARTRITE MDE-HCS 240V DUST EXTRACTOR 2HP c £500 new and come up on auction sites. Alternatively look on auction sites for secondhand units that go for less typical £50 and you can get a really excellent unit.....it may look a little tatty but as long as the impeller / motor are working.....it works! Site it outside if at all possible, a bit of lost heat is not really worth worrying about in your case.

Alternatively a small vac type system for your hand tools would also be a good route to go down, this will also be useful if your doing stuff in-doors at keeping the mess down. Again, look for high suction levels.....a Festools system new or secondhand is always a good investment and will be easy to sell on should you look at doing something different. There are plenty of cheaper and just as effective systems about but without the brand appeal.

 

[LFS19]

Can highly recommend this from Yorkleen http://yorkleen.co.uk/documents/product ... Extractors

Not cheap but great for fine dust plus enough suck to run a 12" thicknesses. Had it probably 15 years and other some new brushes and filters it's been perfect. Not the largest bag for chip but adapted ours to take a dustbin.

Thanks for the link and recommendation.

 

[LFS19]

PWM have an interesting range of extractors.

It may be worth calling them for advice anyway?

http://www.pwm-sales.co.uk/results.asp?Category=40&offset=0

Cool, I will do. Thanks

 

[LFS19]

LFS19,

I think your first buy should be a 3M half face mask with at a minimum P2 filters ( prefer P3 myself) and wear it when cutting, sanding, grinding etc etc. I would also buy a full face mask from Screwfix at about £8 or so.

Then I would buy a workshop vac for fine dust capture ( its been suggested that the Lidl one or similar is OK but I have not used one so maybe search on here) and later add a Dust Deputy sort of thing to it..

If you have a P/T or Table Saw or Bandsaw then you will need a chip collector preferably one without a bag. Have a look at record DX4000 or Yorkleen or Camvac.....2 motors and a 4" hose connection.

That weould get you started fairly cheaply, especially if you build your own airfilter.

I am assuming that you have or will have typical hobby machines. If your kit is larger than hobby stuff you will need to upgrade.

Good luck

Al

So will the 3M face mask and full face mask combo be as effective as something like the airshield?
I'll have a look for the lidl one, I too have heard good things.

The chip collector - are the two motor ones the models for use with two tools assigned simultaneously, so you don't have to swap the hose? I think that was what it said On the record guide, I'll check again.
If so, would I be better having the inconvenience of swapping the hose from tool to tool and a cheaper model?

Thanks allot

 

[LFS19]

I may be wrong, but apart from the chop saw and the band saw everything else you've suggested is a hand tool. The mitre saw and band saw will not in general create much dust, the sanders will be the most 'dirty' items that you are using. This looks like a hobby use of tools, in which case as I suspect most of the tools you've mentioned will have some form of chip / dust collectors already the most effective, and cheapest solution IMO would be to buy yourself a something like the Trend Airshield system, and keep the place where you are doing the work well ventilated.

There is no such thing as 'safe' dust but it's all about the extent of exposure as you can't avoid it in all walks of life.

If you do decide to go for a central dust extraction system, the Startrite system is the best value I believe, it has a lot of extraction for the money STARTRITE MDE-HCS 240V DUST EXTRACTOR 2HP c £500 new and come up on auction sites. Alternatively look on auction sites for secondhand units that go for less typical £50 and you can get a really excellent unit.....it may look a little tatty but as long as the impeller / motor are working.....it works! Site it outside if at all possible, a bit of lost heat is not really worth worrying about in your case.

Alternatively a small vac type system for your hand tools would also be a good route to go down, this will also be useful if your doing stuff in-doors at keeping the mess down. Again, look for high suction levels.....a Festools system new or secondhand is always a good investment and will be easy to sell on should you look at doing something different. There are plenty of cheaper and just as effective systems about but without the brand appeal.

The airshield is certainly appealing, though if the combination of the 3M mask and screw fix full face mask is something just as effective I could go with that, and out money towards the extractor.
That start rite model seems interesting, thanks for the heads up.

In terms of auction sites, are there any others I should be aware of other than eBay and gumtree for this kind of things?

Thanks allot.

 

[LFS19]

I may be wrong, but apart from the chop saw and the band saw everything else you've suggested is a hand tool. The mitre saw and band saw will not in general create much dust, the sanders will be the most 'dirty' items that you are using. This looks like a hobby use of tools, in which case as I suspect most of the tools you've mentioned will have some form of chip / dust collectors already the most effective, and cheapest solution IMO would be to buy yourself a something like the Trend Airshield system, and keep the place where you are doing the work well ventilated.

There is no such thing as 'safe' dust but it's all about the extent of exposure as you can't avoid it in all walks of life.

If you do decide to go for a central dust extraction system, the Startrite system is the best value I believe, it has a lot of extraction for the money STARTRITE MDE-HCS 240V DUST EXTRACTOR 2HP c £500 new and come up on auction sites. Alternatively look on auction sites for secondhand units that go for less typical £50 and you can get a really excellent unit.....it may look a little tatty but as long as the impeller / motor are working.....it works! Site it outside if at all possible, a bit of lost heat is not really worth worrying about in your case.

Alternatively a small vac type system for your hand tools would also be a good route to go down, this will also be useful if your doing stuff in-doors at keeping the mess down. Again, look for high suction levels.....a Festools system new or secondhand is always a good investment and will be easy to sell on should you look at doing something different. There are plenty of cheaper and just as effective systems about but without the brand appeal.

The airshield is certainly appealing, though if the combination of the 3M mask and screw fix full face mask is something just as effective I could go with that, and out money towards the extractor.
That start rite model seems interesting, thanks for the heads up.

In terms of auction sites, are there any others I should be aware of other than eBay and gumtree for this kind of things?

Thanks allot.

 

[beech1948]

Startrite DE machines are simply a rebadge of the general purpose Record range in different colours.

They are expensive for what they are and the airflow figures are overstated.