Best £1,000 bandsaw

[Teapot]

I'm looking for a good quality bandsaw for my workshop. I'm a hobby woodworker making mostly oak furniture and have not previously owned a bandsaw. My budget is £1,000.

I would be grateful for any advice on which one I should buy.

Startright: From what I've read, these are quality machines but my budget would only run to a secondhand 352 and would probably be three phase. My workshop is single phase and I am concerned (terrified) as to whether I could handle the wiring of a variable frequency drive.

Axminster: I've seen the Trade series SBW3501B which I think would serve my purpose but the motor is only 750 watt which may not be up to resawing oak. It also has cast alloy band wheels which I believe to be inferior to cast iron. The warranty is 3years. It seems expensive compared to the offerings of Record below.

Record Power: There are two machines here:-
The BS400 which seems to have everything I need. It seems to be very good value with a 5y warranty, 2hp motor, cast iron band wheels, and a generous max cutting height. Unfortunately, some members of this forum seem to have had quality issues with this machine which have highlighted what appears to be deficiencies in Record's customer service. It weighs a massive 140kg and I read somewhere that weight is a good indicator of rigidity. The Axminster weighs in at 84kg. Given the price of the new Sabre 400, is the BS400 a bargain?
The new Sabre 350. This does not have the capacity of the BS400 (the Sabre 400 is beyond my budget) but It's a new model and presumably has a number of advances over the latter. I'm finding it difficult to establish what these advances are, so any help on that point would be appreciated. It has weight (116kg), cast iron wheels, 1.5hp motor and the 5y warranty.

To summarise, the main questions I have are:-
1. Are the Record Machines the best value for money?
2. Is Record customer service really that bad?
3. Assuming I go with Record, would I be best to buy the new Sabre or is the BS 400 better value?
4. Any other machines that I should look at?

Any help will be appreciated.

 

[mbartlett99]

I still have the axminster kicking around (must get around to offloading that) which I replaced as I needed more depth of cut. Its well finished, well built and cuts very accurately. I agree with you though - it is ovepriced at full rrp and could do with just a bit more oomph. It will resaw at full depth in hard maple but you do have to go a little slower.

I don't know what gave you the impression that Record have bad service - always been a pleasure to deal with their parts dept.

 

[deema]

That’s a great budget for a Bandsaw and I’m sure you will get a really good one. I ha e owned a Startrite 352 and one you haven’t mentioned a Startrite 14S5. I haven’t any practical experience of the others. I now own a Felder Bandsaw the only reason I mention this is for a comparison.

The absolute best Bandsaw out of the three I have owned was the Startrute 14S5. It has an extremely good build quality and is very stiff. I could easily tension and run 1” blades even though it was only rated to 3/4”. The dust extraction was by far the best of the three I have had. The blade change is simple, easy and by far the quickest of any I’ve owned. It has the added advantage of having 5 speeds so I could cut metal plastic etc, as well as wood. The machines normally have small pieces of steel with a groove in them to accept the blade. Don’t be out off, there work really effective effectively and are as good as any other solution. Your supposed to have a different one for each blade width, but in reality you can get by with just a couple, or better still buy an old bowling ball and make your own out of lignin vitia which is the best guide material of all IMO. The very best thing about them is that the original fence has a micro adjuster that allows you to lock the fence and then my turning a thumb wheel dial it in to an exact cut, perfect for tenons straight off the saw. Mine tracked and cut absolutely squar and straight.

The Startrite 352 is very fiddly to change the blade and no where near as easy as the 14S5. The dust extraction is also significantly worse. The only positive, which really isn’t relevant for a hobby machine is that has a foot activated brake. Most o which don’t work properly in secondhand machines and need some work to get them going again.

Would I buy a Felder again? Heck no! In my opinion they are over rated poorly designed hyped up machines that are flimsy, not very stiff and not that well screwed together. But I know a lot of people love the products, just not me. Y biggest lament is selling the 14S5......but I needed a bigger throat machine.

The cost of changing a motor and starter to single phase is about the same as converting using a decent VFD. I would personally swap the motor so you have a good new motor. The control panel on the Startrite 14S5 is a proper industrial panel and all that is required is to buy a new 240v contactor and swap out the 3ph one taking care to wire it back in virtually as originally. It will cost c£160 for the bits or budget c£260 to get a sparky to do it. You will be able to buy a saw with an original fence for around £700 that’s 3ph or close to £1K if it’s single phase. They come up occasionally on auction sites, worth the wait.

 

[Ttrees]

Hello
Your in a home workshop right?
What supply do you have.. 16amp plug, or 13amp?

Don't thing either machine would be great for what you require, as you want at least a 200KG machine
This is not heavy as you seem to think, as the table is the heaviest thing about them.
You can easily lift a dismantled 200kg, (as in with the table off) bandsaw, as the weight is spread evenly,
compared to a really awkward thing on wobbly thin legs that just fights you all the way.
You can tilt a 200kg machine on its spine with one arm easily, and lower it down so it lays on its spine.
You cant do that with something on splayed legs

I would look for a secondhand bandsaw with a dual voltage motor, as nothing needs to be done to hook them up
to an inverter/VFD, as easy and straight forward as wiring a plug.
The main things that is important with VFD's are two things

The only danger to you would be .....
Wait for the capacitors to drain before any rewiring changed of the input or output terminals.
Go in for a cuppa

The danger to the motor/VFD would be if you programmed the VFD to run the motor at
warp speed which would cook it, as VFD's/inverters are normally programmed with default settings for high speed spindle routers for CNC machines and the likes, that run at EIGHT times the speed which your bandsaw would, You must enter the correct values for your motor.

I would get an Isacon/askpower drive, because there's info here (I have one) on the parameters to
program in, parameters meaning the values of your motor, like motor type and speed.
This brand has an auto shut off tech on the cooling fan , so it isn't running all the time .
No problemo with answering any questions you may have, anytime.

A 2HP single phase motor is really pushing it on a 13amp supply, you will be blowing fuses frequently and they start really aggressively compared to a machine with an inverter/VFD.
I can run my 3HP 24" bandsaw on the 13amp plug with absolutely no issues, even with a thin Aldi extension lead ....before the Aldi lead, I was using another lead and it only had a 5amp fuse
It did give up after a month or two, but years since, with no issues with a 13a fuse.

If you want to cut oak you will need a wide blade, dont trust manufactures wild exaggerations about
max blade widths as their full of it, you would bend the spine on your machine if you did!
They won't state the gauge of the blade, so you know its bollo...
Another thing is the resaw height capacity is not anything to go by, as all this means is
it will cut polystyrene at that depth.

You really want a machine with the capacity to handle an inch wide blade if you intend not to be
replacing the thrust bearings all the time...if you look on the RP videos they will "cut out" the
parts in the video what matters, as the thrust guides are screaming
A bit sneaky
I'd prefer not to be changing guides and have a quiet machine
A 1" blade will have enough beam strength not to be rubbing against the thrust guide and causing
this.
Tom

 

[Ttrees]

Another thing is if you go single phase, you are really restricting yourself for any possible future machines
that you will come across for a real bargain, as three phase machines are half the price of single phase
Tom

 

[Trevanion]

Startright: From what I've read, these are quality machines but my budget would only run to a secondhand 352 and would probably be three phase. My workshop is single phase and I am concerned (terrified) as to whether I could handle the wiring of a variable frequency drive.

Don't read too much into what the dealers want for the second-hand machines which is usually £750+ for some reason. You can pick up a very tidy single phase Startrite 352 From anywhere between £350 to £600 and it will be a very worthy investment compared to the Axminster and Record machine. If you weren't so worried about three phase I would say you should seriously consider a used Wadkin C5 as they are absolutely bombproof and you can pick them up relatively well priced, much heavier made and sturdier than the 352.

It also has cast alloy band wheels which I believe to be inferior to cast iron.

Don't read too much into this either, the Startrite has stamped sheet metal band wheels and it's still regarded as one of the best bandsaws. Cast alloy is lighter than cast iron, therefore, you don't need the same motor power to spin up the wheels as you would with the cast iron. There's no real gain from having cast iron wheels than giving a bit more momentum behind the blade and stability when tensioning.

4. Any other machines that I should look at?

Startrite 352: Anywhere from £350 - £600 Nice one on Ebay
Startrite 14-S-5 (As Deema said): Anywhere from £500 - £100 Nice one on Ebay
Wadkin C5: Anywhere from £500 - £1000 Nice one on Ebay

There are a few more good ones like the other Wadkin/Bursgreen machines and there's one particular AEG/Lurem machine where the whole body tilts rather than the bed that's very good. There are some other noteworthy ones as well, Personally I wouldn't buy anything new as hardly anything cuts the mustard like it used to.

 

[Teapot]

Thanks everyone for your prompt and helpful replies. I think I'll take a second look at secondhand three phase machines and particularly the Startright 14S5 and those listed by Trevanion. I will also check out the Isacon/askpower drive.

If I get lucky on the secondhand market, I'll be back for more help on the electrics. May chicken out and get an electrician if I get really scared!

Pleased to hear that Record are not as bad as some suggest.

My workshop has 13 and 16 amp sockets.

 

[Ttrees]

That Wadkin is for a steal, unsure if the old Startrite has a modern dual voltage motor that will require
nothing to hook it up to an inverter, and is probably around the same weight.
If you see 240v (household voltage) on the motor nameplate your good to go.
Jack Forsberg has a line of VFD's and explains the auto shut off fan what the Isacon/askpower drives have. (Jack English machines on youtube)
People here to thoroughly walk you through the process of hooking it up
every _ step _ of _ the _ way.... all day long


If you look at my bandsaw, I have a simple cheap toggle switch on my Isacon/askpower VFD now, salvaged from an old Vax vacuum cleaner, which is all you need to get for a switch.
Much better than an old lightswitch.
Just two wires coming from VFD which are perfectly safe to touch BTW,
Unlike the household input 240v and the motor output terminals.

Otherwise... if you want to get a green ON button instead, you will need a relay between that
and the red STOP switch, which will cost about a fiver
Switches/push buttons only cost about two or three quid each.
Good luck
Tom

 

[Teapot]

Thanks again for all your advice. Looking at a Startright 352S single phase for £875 (buy it now) on e-bay. Are these machines okay? I'm still running away from the three phase conversion!

 

[Ttrees]

How tall are you cutting?
That's a biscuit tin with wheels

 

[Teapot]

Probably not much more than 6 inches.

 

[Ttrees]

I should have also asked how long these oak planks are you intend to cut.
It sounds like you'll be pushing it for even a 20" 200KG machine like the Wadkin C5 even in shorter bits...
Unless you plan on going for a hobby size and replacing the thrust guides often/having a screaming machine.
If you can lift the table on the saw you were on about, you can lift the Wadkin machine
(not over your head obviously) onto skids and slide it easily.
Its at 300 kg machine with table off obviously , that you should need a helper, not undoable though, but thats' from
someone who had a 200KG Startrite beforehand, that needed to back to the shop with only a few mins to do it.
Have you got any machines that dim the lights in your house?, thought I'd ask since you have the 16a plug
For me a 1hp drill, and even the wee house vacuum cleaner will cause some dimming in the house
but the 3HP bandsaw and tablesaw won't, probably not an issue for you but for others it may be.

The worldwide first rule of bandsaws are... always buy bigger than you think you will need.
Try finding a thread where someone wants to downsize their machine.
I'll stop ranting now
Good luck
Tom

 

[Teapot]

Thanks Tom. I didn't realise these machines would be so challenged by my resawing requirements. I must admit I'm a bit off the idea if I can't saw 3/8th x 6 inch planks for the backs of my cupboards. The planks would need to be about 5ft long. At present I make them by making a double cut (i.e. rotating top to bottom with two 3 inch cuts) on my table saw. Other jobs for the bandsaw would include taper cuts for furniture legs and curved bottom stiles.

So the "biscuit tin on wheels" is not worth bothering with?

 

[Ttrees]

I think you would burn the motor out.
What your proposing is no light task.
The general rule of thumb is having 3 to 4 teeth in the cut, so that would mean a wide blade
as you couldn't get the TPI what's required on a smaller blade.
You want a machine that can honestly handle a 1" blade.
A three phase motor will keep the momentum up to speed a lot better than single phase
and give better results.

Dont be scared of three phase, it is a doddle to hook up an inverter with no electrical experience
no more than wiring a plug.
If you chose a machine with a three phase fixed star would motor, 380/440v that is where it can get more complicated.
With a dual voltage motor (has 240v on motor nameplate)
nothing to do apart from orientating three little tabs over to Delta (low voltage 240v mode)
Takes about 30 seconds.
The motor will have three hots and a ground into the output terminals of the VFD
if its the wrong way round swap any of the two, nothing will go wrong.

The input from the wall will have your live, neutral and earth, both the earth from the input and the
earth from the motor will go into the earth terminal, or bolted together onto the VFD shroud/box, so a single earth wire bolted to the pair, can fit into the terminal if you cant fit the two.
Type in the parameters correctly and thats it, the motor will run.(no blade installed yet)

Just remember to let the capacitors in the VFD drain out if going near terminals
which might happen if the wheel rotates backwards.... time for a cuppa.
swap any two of the hots around for correct rotation of wheels

Tom

 

[MikeJhn]

The main difference between the Record Power Sabre400 and BS400 is the Sabre has come into the 20th century with correctly orientated bearings to guide the blade instead of the very old fashioned rubbing blocks that RP and others have been using for years, even then some of the newer bandsaws have the thrust bearing the wrong way around, with your budget I would be seriously looking at a new Sabre, some of these second hand machines are really antiquated.

I have a BS350 which I have modified to fit correctly oriented bearing blade guides, cuts through 150mm Oak without any problems, in fact with the correct blade (Tuff Saws) it will take a 1mm slice off the side of a 150mm oak log.

Mike

 

[heimlaga]

I paid around 1200 euros (is that around 900 pounds?) in total for my 24" cast iron bandsaw. I bought it for 300 or 350 euros and rebuilt and modernized it to the same standards and the same safety level as a new top quality industrial saw costing between 5 and 10 times the money.

 

[deema]

For the very first time I’m going to say that a lot of twadle has been written on this subject.

Firstly blade width and TPI are not related. You can get almost any width of blade with any TPI that you like. A 1” wide blade is not the preserve of low TPI. The reason that a wide blade is preferred to a narrow blade when ripping is that when pressure is placed on the blade a wide blade is less likely to deflect than a narrow blade creating a straighter cut. You can with great care Resaw just as successfully with a 1/4” blade as you can with a 1” blade, but not feed at the same rate.
There is a small difference between the efficient transfer of used power to output power between single phase motors and 3 phase motors, but not enough to make anyone in a hobby shop more attractive than the other. Only when your running say 24/7 does it become a serious issue.
The guides on a Bandsaw are to reduce blade deflection , with the right setup you don’t actually need any guides. The wrong setup of guides causes far more problems than not having any in the first place.
Most 14” throat bandsaws have motors that are c1Kw, well within the capability of any 13A supply. They don’t make the lights dim unless the electrical system is completely wrong and some one who does not know what they are doing has been tinkering. A 3KW single phase motor WILL NOT make the lights dim on start up if the electrical infrastructure is correct with the right wire gauges being used.
A VFD has two advantages, firstly you can attain variable speed within a window of parameters (you can’t go from 0 rpm and not burn out the motor) the second is you can control the ramp up and ramp down of motor speed. For the size of motor used in a hobby Bandsaw a soft start is almost irrelevant, the controlled stop say within 10 seconds is again fairly irrelevant to a hobby shop. Other than that they add a lot of complication and stuff to go wrong when compared to the same price for converting to a single phase motor.

The most important thing for any Bandsaw is how stiff is the frame which determines how much tension you can apply to the blade. The heavier the machine in general the stiffer and therefore the better it should be.

 

[Ttrees]

Firstly blade width and TPI are not related. You can get almost any width of blade with any TPI that you like

Well...most manufactures don't, none that I've seen for good reason, There would be much strain on a 1/2" blade if it had 1TPI and it would wander.

You can with great care Resaw just as successfully with a 1/4” blade as you can with a 1” blade, but not feed at the same rate.

If you like burning wood with a blunt blade, or what would be blunt quite soon, that would cause much issues, the OP wants to cut 6" tall oak planks that's 5 feet long!

The guides on a Bandsaw are to reduce blade deflection , with the right setup you don’t actually need any guides. The wrong setup of guides causes far more problems than not having any in the first place.

That's why you need a saw that can handle a wider blade that has greater beam tension.

Most 14” throat bandsaws have motors that are c1Kw, well within the capability of any 13A supply. They don’t make the lights dim unless the electrical system is completely wrong and some one who does not know what they are doing has been tinkering. A 3KW single phase motor WILL NOT make the lights dim on start up if the electrical infrastructure is correct with the right wire gauges being used.

In a perfect world :roll:

A VFD has two advantages, firstly you can attain variable speed within a window of parameters (you can’t go from 0 rpm and not burn out the motor) the second is you can control the ramp up and ramp down of motor speed.

As you basically said in a roundabout way, having the ability to buy a really good machine and run it, is the main advantage.

Tom

 

[Spectric]

Hi Mike

I have the BS400, how did you modify the 350 to fit correctly oriented bearing blade guides as it uses the same seyup as mine?

 

[MikeJhn]

I made it difficult for myself as I already had the Yandles bearing guide, this thread makes it simple: axminster-hbs350n-bandsaw-advice-t105064-90.html