Bailey to Bedrock

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Muina

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I've got a cheap Record/Irwin Smoother that I've tuned up as much as I can (without spending loads of money :p) but there's one thing I noticed... It takes sooooooooo long to adjust the throat!!!

There's so much trial and error involved, even if you measure the opening and adjust accordingly you've got to make sure it's squared up and just doing that can throw i right off.

So, I'd like to know if there's any way of converting a Bailey pattern to a Bedrock style, I can't really afford to buy a brand new plane to have set for thicker shavings and I often plane quite wild grained woods.

I was thinking maybe drilling into the body and inserting one of those cylindrical bolts (can't remember what they're called), there is a small hole on the frog that looks almost like they changed their mind during manufacture.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thankyou

Anthony
 
Muina":35gag73w said:
I've got a cheap Record/Irwin Smoother
Oh dear.

Muina":35gag73w said:
So, I'd like to know if there's any way of converting a Bailey pattern to a Bedrock style
Yes. Buy a Bedrock type. Honestly, don't throw any more time and money at the "Record" Irwin; pearls before swine, silk purse out of a sow's ear, and other pig-unfriendly aphorisms will all apply. But fwiw, adding different bolts to a Bailey does not a Bedrock make - it's a matter of the bedding area for the frog, and frankly a decent Bailey type will do just as well as a Bedrock anyway, because as a rule, and in my experience, mostly you simply don't change the frog setting once you've got it how you want it. It's one of the primary reasons why one ends up with a range of bench planes. My personal view is the whole adjustable frog thing was a cunning way of making a manufacturing necessity seem to be a desirable feature anyway, but that's by-the-by. Set the Irwin up for the coarse stuff and get something s/h for finer work, as you're on a budget. You'll thank yourself in the long term.
 
Go to a car boot and buy an OLD Record or Stanley. Then you will get a good well made plane, dont touch anything made after the early 1960's
 
Muina":3dmg0hn3 said:
I've got a cheap Record/Irwin Smoother that I've tuned up as much as I can (without spending loads of money :p) but there's one thing I noticed... It takes sooooooooo long to adjust the throat!!!
......
Shouldn't do (unless you are targeting an overly precise measured adjustment). And the bedrock is hardly any quicker (three screws and then reset the blade). My solution is to avoid mouth adjustment altogether. I set the frog dead in line with the back of the mouth and leave it alone. If I need a better cut I use a different plane (LV smoother with adjustable mouth) or a scraper.
 
Paul Chapman":3kfsmhkd said:
Jacob":3kfsmhkd said:
And the bedrock is hardly any quicker

Still talking rubbish, Jacob :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul
Not really. I've tried them side by side. OK so you don't have to unclip the blade assembly with the bedrock but this is the work of seconds. Otherwise it's the same number of operations - 3 screws and re-set the blade.
If you want an adjustable mouth it makes more sense to buy a plane with an adjustable mouth.
 
Jacob":1rd6i5zh said:
Paul Chapman":1rd6i5zh said:
Jacob":1rd6i5zh said:
And the bedrock is hardly any quicker

Still talking rubbish, Jacob :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul
Not really. I've tried them side by side. OK so you don't have to unclip the blade assembly with the bedrock but this is the work of seconds. Otherwise it's the same number of operations - 3 screws and re-set the blade.
If you want an adjustable mouth it makes more sense to buy a plane with an adjustable mouth.

I think the advantage of being able to adjust the mouth with the blade in situ is quite obvious. In an ordinary Bailey you're trying to set the frog position whilst guessing how big the mouth will be when you put the blade back in.

As Alf says, the real solution is to have enough planes that you don't have to adjust the mouth. More fun too.

BugBear
 
You know.....there is a wee bit of tecknical difference between a 1980-ies Mercedes and a 1980-ies Rolls Royce and a 1980-ies Lada.

-A Bedrock plane and it's modern counterparts are the Rolls Royce of planes.
-An elderly Record or Bailey or the like are the Mercedes of planes.
-A modern Record or Anant is the Lada of planes
-A modern super-cheap Chineese plane is the eqivalent of a 40 years old beaten up Moskwith that has been owned by a hobby mechanic in the deepest countryside of Mongolia where the only spare parts avaiable were barb wire and empty tin cans.

So......for those of us who are ordinary woodworkers doing ordinary work a secondhand Mercedes class plane is good enough in my oppinion.
A Lada may do it's job reasonably well if well fettled and maintained and technically improved by a resourceful owner but no matter what you do it will never ever become a Rolls-Royce and not even a Mercedes.

Therefore I tend to buy high quality eqipment and because I am poor I look for secondhand stuff which is usually more or less broken. I repair it and get good equipment within my tight budget.
Just my oppinion.
 
bugbear":3iracuyx said:
....
I think the advantage of being able to adjust the mouth with the blade in situ is quite obvious. In an ordinary Bailey you're trying to set the frog position whilst guessing how big the mouth will be when you put the blade back in.
Doesn't have to be guesswork - if you really want to be precise you can turn the set screw by a precise amount.
As Alf says, the real solution is to have enough planes that you don't have to adjust the mouth. ...
Yes, or just one plane in the collection with an adjustable mouth
 
The point about Bailey-style frogs (and what was behind Anthony's post) is that they are often badly machined. The result is that when you try to set the mouth where you want it, the frog might not seat properly. By comparison, Bedrock frogs tend to be machined very accurately (at least they are in the modern versions from LN and Clifton) and adjusting the mouth is therefore simple and fast.

Cheers :wink:

Paul
 
Jacob":374v8e9z said:
bugbear":374v8e9z said:
....
I think the advantage of being able to adjust the mouth with the blade in situ is quite obvious. In an ordinary Bailey you're trying to set the frog position whilst guessing how big the mouth will be when you put the blade back in.
Doesn't have to be guesswork - if you really want to be precise you can turn the set screw by a precise amount.

Easier, quicker and simpler if you can see the final gap while making the adjustment (etc).

BugBear
 
Thanks for the replies everyone, I will be going to a car boot this Sunday (as long as this gorgeous weather keeps up!) to have a look for both Infills and an old Record/Stanley etc.

The problem I have is mainly that, like Paul C said, the frog is not well seated. So any adjustments are very hard to make as once you've set the frog you have to set the blade back in, check it for square/check the throat, take a couple of test cuts and then most of the time there'll be something wrong so you'll have to do it all over again.

The other thing is my plane doesn't have a set screw, there are only two screws underneath the blade holding the frog down, as soon as you unscrew these two screws then the frog is completely loose and any adjustments have to be made by hand. This creates problems when you tighten one of the screws because often it'll pull the frog out of square and you'll have to re-set it.

I know my plane's not exactly on par with a Clifton or a Lie Nielsen, but I would like to try and give it it's moment because once it's set up properly and the blade's sharp it does take a good shaving. It's just that it can take a matter of hours to set up and if I take the plunge and make any adjustments that don't turn out right it'll be another afternoon setting it right again.

I'm going to keep looking for a decent s/h Stanley or something but even some sort of quick setting mechanism would make this plane a million times better than it is right now.

Thanks

Anthony
 
Muina":3fd5bnlq said:
The other thing is my plane doesn't have a set screw, there are only two screws underneath the blade holding the frog down, as soon as you unscrew these two screws then the frog is completely loose and any adjustments have to be made by hand. This creates problems when you tighten one of the screws because often it'll pull the frog out of square and you'll have to re-set it.

That's terrible, Anthony. Whenever you think Record and Stanley tools can't possibly get any worse, they always manage to prove you wrong.........

Good luck with trying to find a decent second-hand plane.

Cheers :wink:

Paul
 
Thanks, I think I'll need it, I was at one this Sunday just gone and the only thing I found was a beaten up and irreparable Spokeshave, which I left, and an "OK" old Ripsaw. Everything else was just the little things you get free with magazines.

I'm going to take my plane apart again though, see if I can figure out some way of making it a little easier to adjust in case I don't find a decent s/h for a while.

Anthony
 
heimlaga":2ewuaegp said:
A modern super-cheap Chineese plane is the eqivalent of a 40 years old beaten up Moskwith that has been owned by a hobby mechanic in the deepest countryside of Mongolia where the only spare parts avaiable were barb wire and empty tin cans.
I think this statement very much depends on your definition of 'super-cheap'. The current Quangsheng offerings from Workshop Heaven (and similar products from elsewhere) are very, very good and certainly far better than a modern Record-Irwin or even something from the Sub-Continent. They even stand a very close comparative look to the likes of LN planes - Rob
 
Hello,

Setting up the mouth opening for a hand plane is a " once in a lifetime" thing (or should be). Adjusting and readjusting a bench plane's mouth was/is not standard practice. In the olden days the cabinetmaker resorted to different planes for different stages in his work: scrub for roughing, jack or fore for flattening, and smother for smoothing and clean up. Each tool was made or tuned to do its intended work well. There is no real "Jack of all trades" amongst planes....

This is good and sound practice, even today... so buy at least a few more bench planes, and tune them in accordance with their intended jobs.

Have a nice day,

János
 
woodbloke":3pa1p8gc said:
heimlaga":3pa1p8gc said:
A modern super-cheap Chineese plane is the eqivalent of a 40 years old beaten up Moskwith that has been owned by a hobby mechanic in the deepest countryside of Mongolia where the only spare parts avaiable were barb wire and empty tin cans.
I think this statement very much depends on your definition of 'super-cheap'. The current Quangsheng offerings from Workshop Heaven (and similar products from elsewhere) are very, very good and certainly far better than a modern Record-Irwin or even something from the Sub-Continent. They even stand a very close comparative look to the likes of LN planes - Rob

I suspect the planes being referred to are the kind sold by Silverline et al.

BugBear
 
János":2xkuj6qq said:
....l. There is no real "Jack of all trades" amongst planes....
....
The jack plane comes pretty close (hence the name).
 
Jacob":2ikwav1s said:
János":2ikwav1s said:
....l. There is no real "Jack of all trades" amongst planes....
....
The jack plane comes pretty close (hence the name).


Yes, jack planes definitely fall into the category of being useable as smoothing, panel and short try planes.

Adjustable mouthed planes are what they are and can/should be adjusted to suit the timber being planed and degree of blade set in use. Otherwise you may as well purchase a wider selection of standard non-adjustable planes and use frog adjustment as a means of varying the throat.
 
GazPal":1o0j9hh4 said:
Adjustable mouthed planes are what they are and can/should be adjusted to suit the timber being planed and degree of blade set in use. Otherwise you may as well purchase a wider selection of standard non-adjustable planes and use frog adjustment as a means of varying the throat.

But there are very few (that I know of) adjustable mouth bench planes (as opposed to adjustable frog).

Could you mention the ones you're thinking of, outside the re-incarnations of the Stanley #62, #164?

BugBear
 
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