Any electrical engineers on here?

[Urga]

You need to get the motor checked by someone who knows about motors, but not worth getting it rewound so might just be as easy to get a new motor.


I hope you measured the loop impedances to ensure the wiring can take the higher current during a fault condition, type B needs 3 to 5 times rated current to disconnect whilst a type C needs 5 to 10 times rated current which means a 16 amp device might require 160 amps compared to 80 amps for the type B. Having seen the results where people just change a protective device it is always an eye opener, no different to wrapping a fuse in foil. Changing any protective device is a change in original design and therefore should only be done by a qualified sparky with the right test equipment who can provide a certificate of safety.

Yes it is in the hands of a professional at the moment, assessing what's afoot.
I didn't personally measure the Ze and the R1 +R2 of lighting circuit as I am neither an electrician, nor have the appropriate test equipment. However, this was carried out by the electrician who had initially suggested the solution.

 

[Urga]

It MUST have a rating plate on the motor, it’s not an option for a motor to be supplied without one. Speak with Charnwood and ask some very pointed questions.

If it’s got a start cap, there is the possibility that the switch to change it from the start to run cap is shorting.

I would take the back of the motor off and have a look at the dynamic switch.
I thought it was just a single cap motor as that’s all you’ve got wired in. A cap could also have blown and shorted to the case. (I’m assuming you’ve already checked that?)

The motor is still a boat anchor!

You're not a fan of this motor, are you? lol
Both caps were replaced and originals tested as well. I now have 4 perfectly functioning caps. I initially thought they would be the source of the grounding, as they are a common source of issues.
Are you referring to the centrifugal switch? I think if that were the problem, the motor would not run at all, and the run cap would be trashed. It isn't and the motor does, albeit in a potentially dangerous state ie unearthed.
The reason I'm slightly reluctant to purchase a new motor is because I have just recently purchased this second hand for £500. So, the cost of a new motor is a little unpalatable to say the least. Might not have any choice though

 

[deema]

Earth / neutral, the same thing in reality. So, no it won’t blow A cap, and yes, check the centrifugal switch.

 

[Urga]

So, an update into my shenanigans.
The winding specialist, just stated that the motor was gone, but with no visible signs of where it had failed, and to that matter, why. I was expecting an explanation as to what may have happened, but I suppose they have bigger fish to fry.
He also stated that he could not find any specs anywhere on the motor, which is unusual. He also said that this was also an unusual motor physically, and would be hard to replace. It was also, as previously mentioned, of poor quality.
The problem I have now is what to replace it with? Previous posters gave recommendations of superior motors as options, but given the 'unusual' specs of the OEM motor, I may have to walk into that lamppost again, and purchase a replacement Charnwood motor.
Any advice from you chaps that know about these things?
Onwards and downwards!

 

[Bingy man]

So, an update into my shenanigans.
The winding specialist, just stated that the motor was gone, but with no visible signs of where it had failed, and to that matter, why. I was expecting an explanation as to what may have happened, but I suppose they have bigger fish to fry.
He also stated that he could not find any specs anywhere on the motor, which is unusual. He also said that this was also an unusual motor physically, and would be hard to replace. It was also, as previously mentioned, of poor quality.
The problem I have now is what to replace it with? Previous posters gave recommendations of superior motors as options, but given the 'unusual' specs of the OEM motor, I may have to walk into that lamppost again, and purchase a replacement Charnwood motor.
Any advice from you chaps that know about these things?
Onwards and downwards!

Can you not go off the original spec for that saw , as others have mentioned the data badge or spec is sometimes little more than a sticker . Eg if the saw was 1700 watt output can you not just get a similar replacement . I no very little about motors but it can’t be that difficult - I’d definitely not want the same crud from Charnwood for you to have the same issue in months / years to come .

 

[niall Y]

As @deema has suggested I would just replace it with a TEC motor. If there is nothing written on the motor then use the specifications quoted for the machine as an indication of wattage. The spindle diameter is also important, unless you are able to drill out the pulley, so you will be limited anyway to what wattage is available for a particular size of spindle.
The motor looks very much like the one in my Charnwood belt sander. If I were ever to have to replace that, there would be issues about fitting an equivalent TEC motor inside the machine casing, without adapting it in some way. Not sure if this would also be the case with their planer/thicknesser.

 

[deema]

Which model is it off?

 

[Spectric]

Within reason a motor is a motor, your machine has a foot mounted motor with a double pulley and no junction box, the wires come straight out the body through a snap grommet. Once you give some details about the make and model of the PT then maybe use a motor of the same power as one from a similar machine, this is one from a Record PT107 which is foot mounted with a pulley that is keyed on, you could use a taperlock to fit a new double pulley. This motor is rated at 2200 Watts or 3Hp and full load current is 9.7 amps.

This is a picture of the smaller Charnwood with a 2Kw motor but note the double pulley and the fact it is also keyed on, item 10. If you thionk that many of these machines come out of the same factory just wearing different cloths then you can assume the motors are also sourced from one supplier with makes interchangeability more viable.

 

[Urga]

Can you not go off the original spec for that saw , as others have mentioned the data badge or spec is sometimes little more than a sticker . Eg if the saw was 1700 watt output can you not just get a similar replacement . I no very little about motors but it can’t be that difficult - I’d definitely not want the same crud from Charnwood for you to have the same issue in months / years to come .

It's not that simple, otherwise I would have purchased one from the windings guy. These are obviously made for Charnwood specifically. They don't match up with normal specs ie B3 etc. Even the spindle is stepped, so that would mean a new double pulley and the hope that everything lines up for the drive belt lengths. I take your point about throwing good money after bad regarding going back to Charnwood, but this won't really see heavy use. It'll be used for a bit of boat building and occasional furniture making

 

[Urga]

Within reason a motor is a motor, your machine has a foot mounted motor with a double pulley and no junction box, the wires come straight out the body through a snap grommet. Once you give some details about the make and model of the PT then maybe use a motor of the same power as one from a similar machine, this is one from a Record PT107 which is foot mounted with a pulley that is keyed on, you could use a taperlock to fit a new double pulley. This motor is rated at 2200 Watts or 3Hp and full load current is 9.7 amps.

View attachment 169840This is a picture of the smaller Charnwood with a 2Kw motor but note the double pulley and the fact it is also keyed on, item 10. If you thionk that many of these machines come out of the same factory just wearing different cloths then you can assume the motors are also sourced from one supplier with makes interchangeability more viable.




View attachment 169861

Thank you for that.
The existing motor is rated at only 1500w and indeed has a double pulley fitted to 20mm dia stepped shaft. I imagine the exact power rating does not matter too much in retrofitting, within reason?
I cannot find a stated rpm for the OEM motor on their website, and I imagine this is important on a planer thicknesser. However,I'm sure I could contact Charnwood for this information.
I suppose what concerns me is getting the correct body length, shaft and standoff to make sure everything aligns after fitting.
Machine is the Charnwood W583

 

[Urga]

Which model is it off?

Charnwood W583

As @deema has suggested I would just replace it with a TEC motor. If there is nothing written on the motor then use the specifications quoted for the machine as an indication of wattage. The spindle diameter is also important, unless you are able to drill out the pulley, so you will be limited anyway to what wattage is available for a particular size of spindle.
The motor looks very much like the one in my Charnwood belt sander. If I were ever to have to replace that, there would be issues about fitting an equivalent TEC motor inside the machine casing, without adapting it in some way. Not sure if this would also be the case with their planer/thicknesser.

Yes I think might be the case,unfortunately.

 

[deema]

So, attached is the manual for the machine. The good news is that the motor appears to have lots of room around it, and nothing complex that the shaft for the pulley has to do. So, I’m fairly confident a standard motor will fit or with basic tools made to fit. I’d give Charnwood a call and ask for the motor specs, what you want to know is how many poles the motor has. It’s highly likely it’s 2 pole, but could be 4. A 2 pole motor is the cheapest. So, knowing the poles and that’s its 1500W and a few measurements your good to find a suitable decent motor to replace it with. Me, I’d get a 2.2KW motor, first off they seem to be the sweet spot for price, they are one of the cheapest motors, and I’m confident that it’s probably a 90L frame, but you need to use the chart to measure a few dimensions. The height from the ground to the centre of the spindle determines the 90 bit. The height is the number, so you only need a tape measure nothing fancy, it will be 71, 80 or 90mm ish. It’s foot mount so that’s B3. Next measure the length of the motor with the fan cowel on and that will give you whether it’s a L or not. if it’s not an L I’d look at how much room you have behind the motor to see if an L will fit, chances are it will / is a L. A 2.2 KW 90L B3 is a high use motor and is therefore one of the cheapest you can buy. Don’t worry about the shaft fitting the pulley, pulleys are jelly bean parts, you can buy a replacement very easily. I always replace the pulleys the chances are that a new pulley is better balanced than the carp that came with the machine. The only other thing to check is the switch can handle a 2.2KW motor, it will be a jelly bean part so again the chances of it being compatible is extremely high.

If you arnt electrical knowledgeable DO NOT mess with electrics, it bits and kills, doesn’t often give second chances.

 

[Spectric]

Something to be watchful of is that if you do fit the 2200 Watt motor then it may no longer run from a 13 amp plug, I had to fit a 16 amp supply for my PT107. But it will make it a nicer machine, if you look at it and compare to the PT107 they have more in common than not and it is possible that Charnwood deliberatly underated the motor so as it would run from a std 13 amp socket, so for a better priced motor then the extra power is a bonus.

 

[Urga]

So, attached is the manual for the machine. The good news is that the motor appears to have lots of room around it, and nothing complex that the shaft for the pulley has to do. So, I’m fairly confident a standard motor will fit or with basic tools made to fit. I’d give Charnwood a call and ask for the motor specs, what you want to know is how many poles the motor has. It’s highly likely it’s 2 pole, but could be 4. A 2 pole motor is the cheapest. So, knowing the poles and that’s its 1500W and a few measurements your good to find a suitable decent motor to replace it with. Me, I’d get a 2.2KW motor, first off they seem to be the sweet spot for price, they are one of the cheapest motors, and I’m confident that it’s probably a 90L frame, but you need to use the chart to measure a few dimensions. The height from the ground to the centre of the spindle determines the 90 bit. The height is the number, so you only need a tape measure nothing fancy, it will be 71, 80 or 90mm ish. It’s foot mount so that’s B3. Next measure the length of the motor with the fan cowel on and that will give you whether it’s a L or not. if it’s not an L I’d look at how much room you have behind the motor to see if an L will fit, chances are it will / is a L. A 2.2 KW 90L B3 is a high use motor and is therefore one of the cheapest you can buy. Don’t worry about the shaft fitting the pulley, pulleys are jelly bean parts, you can buy a replacement very easily. I always replace the pulleys the chances are that a new pulley is better balanced than the carp that came with the machine. The only other thing to check is the switch can handle a 2.2KW motor, it will be a jelly bean part so again the chances of it being compatible is extremely high.

If you arnt electrical knowledgeable DO NOT mess with electrics, it bits and kills, doesn’t often give second chances.

Lol, loving the jelly bean parts!
That's brilliant info, thanks.
I had a look at IEC frame sizes and although I know it's not too much hassle to drill new mounting holes etc, there is nothing on this motor which matches anything on the chart.
I've attached a quick Sketchup drawing I made of the dimensions I lifted.
Great to know that the double pulley won't be an issue to replace, as I can't seem to source many 20mm dia keyed shaft motors.
I assume that the rating will be on the switch I removed, and I'll check that out. This wouldn't be a problem to replace if it's not up to spec.

 

[Urga]

Something to be watchful of is that if you do fit the 2200 Watt motor then it may no longer run from a 13 amp plug, I had to fit a 16 amp supply for my PT107. But it will make it a nicer machine, if you look at it and compare to the PT107 they have more in common than not and it is possible that Charnwood deliberatly underated the motor so as it would run from a std 13 amp socket, so for a better priced motor then the extra power is a bonus.

Yes, I was mindful of this. I already have a 16A supply fitted for my saw, so this wouldn't be an issue, thanks.

 

[HOJ]

This is a long shot, but try to reach out to @Nick Laguna UK , I think he has a facility within Charnwood, perhaps he could get you some answers.

 

[Spectric]

as I can't seem to source many 20mm dia keyed shaft motors.

With a taper lock fitting it is not an issue, fit the wrong key and it stops the taperlock from correctly fitting. I also suspect the switches are a generic one switch fits all as they are in my opinion just a cheap version of a proper DOL. So you have the supply, all you need is the new motor, by the way how is the belt tensioned ?

 

[deema]

Im being a bit slow today! so, measure the diameters of the two pulleys, the one on the motor and the one on the spindle. They should be about the same diameter. If they are it’s almost certain it’s a 2 pole motor. The ’normal’ spindle speed for a PT is 3000RPM, unless the cutter block is a tiny diameter. Looking at the manual it looks to be a normal size ie somewhere between 75 and 100mm.

A modern cutter block has to have the max RPM engraved on it. Rotate the block and see what it says, I’d put good money in 3000ish RPM or higher.

 

[Urga]

With a taper lock fitting it is not an issue, fit the wrong key and it stops the taperlock from correctly fitting. I also suspect the switches are a generic one switch fits all as they are in my opinion just a cheap version of a proper DOL. So you have the supply, all you need is the new motor, by the way how is the belt tensioned ?

It isn't! There is no tensioner. Pics attached of the 'machine' and the 'motor' with the pulley off.

 

[Urga]

Im being a bit slow today! so, measure the diameters of the two pulleys, the one on the motor and the one on the spindle. They should be about the same diameter. If they are it’s almost certain it’s a 2 pole motor. The ’normal’ spindle speed for a PT is 3000RPM, unless the cutter block is a tiny diameter. Looking at the manual it looks to be a normal size ie somewhere between 75 and 100mm.

A modern cutter block has to have the max RPM engraved on it. Rotate the block and see what it says, I’d put good money in 3000ish RPM or higher.

Thanks. It's a 2 pole then, diameters are the same. The cutter block is the same diameter as my former real machine, so it looks like a 3000rpm machine. I'll check the block just in case it's a jelly bean block!
Would something like this do?
https://www.bearingsrus.co.uk/tec-1phase-2.2kw-240volt-2pole-d90-frame-b3-mount-tpcI notice it has a permanent cap rather than a start and run, as fitted. Is this an issue?