Am I the only person depressed by the number of comments with gender or racial stereotypes in them?

[Jacob]

No it's not. The view point you are putting forward would mean that a Serb born today would be responsible and accountable once they are an adult of my age for the actions of Serbs during the 1990s Balkans conflicts. That is ludicrous

Can't speak for the Serbs but in principle anyone born today is going to grow up in a world full of displaced and disadvantaged people. Could say tough titty it's nowt to do with me but it wouldn't go down well, and it might be your turn next.

 

[Droogs]

Jacob you are just stirring, no sane person who is emotionally functional is going to stand by and allow people such as refugees to suffer without offering some form of help out of just common empathy and humanity. However being told they have to make reperations because of events that occurred 50+ years before they were born is because it is their fault is ludicrous. Just as the Serb example do we go around telling every living German the events of 33-45 are their fault, they must be ashamed of who they are and feel personal guilt for those events, no we don't.

 

[Garden Shed Projects]

These nations were not peaceful when the British Empire arrived. They were fighting each other before we got there and are fighting each other after we leave.
The Empire left infrastructure, roads and railways behind when it pulled out. It is possible they were in a better position after wards.
The repetitions argument is weak at best.

 

[Daniel2]

These nations were not peaceful when the British Empire arrived. They were fighting each other before we got there and are fighting each other after we leave.
The Empire left infrastructure, roads and railways behind when it pulled out. It is possible they were in a better position after wards.
The repetitions argument is weak at best.

You mean, like we were better off after the Romans had visited us ?

 

[Fergie 307]

It sort of is, yes.
We impeded their natural development as independant nations/regions.
And, in many cases, continue to do so.

Really? Take Zimbabwe as an example. Once one of the richest and most productive countries in Africa. Now an economic disaster. Why, because of rampant corruption by the Africans running it. A pattern sadly all to often repeated. Please explain how that is the fault of the previous colonial power.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob you are just stirring, no sane person who is emotionally functional is going to stand by and allow people such as refugees to suffer without offering some form of help out of just common empathy and humanity. However being told they have to make reperations because of events that occurred 50+ years before they were born is because it is their fault is ludicrous. Just as the Serb example do we go around telling every living German the events of 33-45 are their fault, they must be ashamed of who they are and feel personal guilt for those events, no we don't.

Germany has made huge changes in attitude to take account of their responsibility for the past and is now a civilised and humane place to live, and a principle agent in the EU - the most civilising feature of modern Europe.

 

[Jacob]

These nations were not peaceful when the British Empire arrived. They were fighting each other before we got there and are fighting each other after we leave.
The Empire left infrastructure, roads and railways behind when it pulled out. It is possible they were in a better position after wards.
The repetitions argument is weak at best.

Absolute fantasy.
You need to read a bit of history. Many of these places were in fact peaceful and developing until we turned up. We committed acts of genocide and completely destroyed many communities, we enslaved millions and killed them in the process, when slavery ended we went back and took over their lands, we destroyed their economies .. and so on.
Try this if you want to get up to speed Verso
I can understand why the anti-wokists are reluctant to revise their view of our history, it's a terrible story. It's argued that the empire wasn't even profitable except for suppliers to the military needed to sustain it by force.

 

[planesleuth]

As you drive through Debyshire you will soon be able to identify Jacob's house. Tumble down old shed to the side of the house full of old planes and chisels purchased on ebay that are never used because he is too busy ranting on forums indoors. Rickety old flag pole and tatty old EU flag, adorned with red ribbons and fluttering in the breeze, targeted from the road and covered in mud and rotten egg splashes. Three migrant families living in the basement, two in the downstairs with five more families above and in the loft because its always best to practice what you preach. Old copies of the Daily Mail for sale by the gate to make a bit of extra pocket money. They are snapped up by old locals eager to add anti woke articles and Royalist trash to their smelly old scrap books. Wait! There's someone at the window! No, its not Jacob. Its just Marley's ghost.

 

[Jacob]

Really? Take Zimbabwe as an example. Once one of the richest and most productive countries in Africa. Now an economic disaster. Why, because of rampant corruption by the Africans running it. A pattern sadly all to often repeated. Please explain how that is the fault of the previous colonial power.

The previous colonial power had been exploiting and destroying the country since Rhodes. Takes time to rebuild after more than 100 years of tyranny. The British had left them no legacy worth having. They've only just worked their way through one president since independence. Early days.

 

[Fergie 307]

Absolute fantasy.
You need to read a bit of history. Many of these places were in fact peaceful and developing until we turned up. We committed acts of genocide and completely destroyed many communities, we enslaved millions and killed them in the process, when slavery ended we went back and took over their lands, we destroyed their economies .. and so on.
Try this if you want to get up to speed Verso
I can understand why the anti-wokists are reluctant to revise their view of our history, it's a terrible story. It's argued that the empire wasn't even profitable except for suppliers to the military needed to sustain it by force.

Jacob
once again you ignore some inconvenient truths. Slavery for example. Do you think white men went out into the hinterland in Africa to capture slaves? No they did not. The fact is that Africans had been taking and selling slaves amongst themselves for millennia before the white man turned up. Now of course we increased this trade enormously, something which is undoubtedly a shameful part of our history. But the fact is there were black Africans only too pleased to go out and capture their fellow black Africans and sell them to us. The chief of the Ashanti tribe recently apologised for the part they played as one of the most active slave takers. As for economies, most former colonies were in fairly good shape when we departed with functioning infrastructure, law and order etc. Few remained that way for long. Unfortunately the all to often repeated theme in Africa has been for things to be governed by tribal considerations. So when a particular tribe becomes ascendant, their first order of business has been to dispossess, marginalise or even murder those belonging to other tribes. We have seen this in Rwanda, the Congo and elsewhere. You cannot seriously suggest that the colonial powers practiced active genocide in this way, that is utter nonsense. In other parts of the world similar things go on prompted by religion. Don't misunderstand me, colonialism is not something I support in any way. The sad fact is that the human species is not very pleasant. Every society as far back as we know engaged in slavery for example, and we have constantly busied ourselves killing one another for the most stupid reasons. You only have to look at what is happening today in Myanmar, or China. These are unfortunately manifestations of the basic lack of respect humans have always had for one another, as indeed was the whole idea of conquering other countries and making them colonies. Individuals can get along fine, while nations seem to find it more difficult. Personally I cannot imagine ever getting to hate someone enough to want to kill them based on religion, race or tribe. Sadly many do. But to suggest that every colony was some rural idyll until the evil conquerors showed up is just utter nonsense.

 

[Garden Shed Projects]

It is true that the British Empire committed some terrible acts. I am saying that it was neither the first nor last regime to commit such crimes.
If reperations are in order we could use the money that we counterclaim from France for the Norman invasion, Norway for the Viking hoards Nd the Romans for what they did.
The reason there are such calls is because we kept better records.

 

[dzj]

Germany has made huge changes in attitude to take account of their responsibility for the past and is now a civilised and humane place to live, and a principle agent in the EU - the most civilising feature of modern Europe.

I don't know, I kinda like the idea of Germany being a perpetual fall guy. (Just kidding )
I can't say I hold the human condition in very high regard. Britain seized a historical/ geographical
opportunity in the XIX century. Given half a chance most nations would've done the same.
No need for apologies or reparations. It was the way of the world and still is in many ways.
There's just better PR nowadays.

 

[Daniel2]

Really? Take Zimbabwe as an example. Once one of the richest and most productive countries in Africa. Now an economic disaster. Why, because of rampant corruption by the Africans running it. A pattern sadly all to often repeated. Please explain how that is the fault of the previous colonial power.

Zimbabwe is, indeed, a very good example.
The present corruption of the country is a consequence of having
natural development put on hold for a couple of centuries. They are in
an infant state, regarding the development of national hierarchy and
mature authority. Not helped, by their despotic dictator who held,
undemocratically, on to his position since we so graciously gave them
their independance. It was us, incidentally, that put that dictator in place.
Perhaps, if we hadn't interfered in the first place, the country as we have
come to know it, wouldn't even have existed. It was us, who set off around
the world, arbitarily drawing borders wherever it suited us. The concept
of "countries" & "borders" is entirely notional and fabricated.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

However being told they have to make reparations because of events that occurred 50+ years before they were born is because it is their fault is ludicrous ...

It is indeed strange that Germans and Japanese alive today shouldn't be blamed for WW2 but somehow I am personally responsible for Slavery, the Boer Wars, the Black Hole of Calcutta and the Irish Potato Famine.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Jacob
once again you ignore some inconvenient truths. Slavery for example.

This is good.

 

[Jacob]

It is indeed strange that Germans and Japanese alive today shouldn't be blamed for WW2 but somehow I am personally responsible for Slavery, the Boer Wars, the Black Hole of Calcutta and the Irish Potato Famine.

Nobody said you were personally responsible what on earth gave you that idea!
But we are collectively responsible for the fallout from past misadventures in terms of the lives people lead today. Just think of the Windrush fiasco as one small example of where we failed.
Ditto the Japs and the Germans. And we do blame them for WW2 still, as far as I know

 

[Droogs]

The J word above is just as unacceptable as the N or P words Jacob and no we do not blame the current generation of Japanese or German people for those events.

 

[Fergie 307]

The previous colonial power had been exploiting and destroying the country since Rhodes. Takes time to rebuild after more than 100 years of tyranny. The British had left them no legacy worth having. They've only just worked their way through one president since independence. Early days.

how exactly did we destroy the country? And what exactly needed rebuilding?Under us Rhodesia was an extremely prosperous country, able to feed its own population and export food and other goods all over Africa and the world. All they needed to do economically following independence was to carry on. Instead Mugabe sought to basically asset strip the country for his own benefit, and that of his cronies. The result is that the country is now a total shambles, unable to even feed its own people adequately. Much more recovery needed following the years of independence that was ever needed following our departure.

 

[Fergie 307]

I find this woke idea of pulling down statues and so forth pretty stupid. Does anyone suggest we should demolish the remains of Auchwitz? No, because it serves as a reminder of what took place. It seems to me that it is much more sensible to treat things in this way. I am not comparing colonialism with the holocaust, merely saying that these things are better left in place as a point of learning and discussion.

 

[Fergie 307]

The J word above is just as unacceptable as the N or P words Jacob and no we do not blame the current generation of Japanese or German people for those events.

Well said that man!