Allan Breed's Dovetail methods.

[J_SAMa]

Hi all,

Just go to 10:24 for the essential part: the saw is hung upside down on the user's pinky so that it is plumb, and therefore perfectly square to the workpiece
http://blip.tv/play/hagkgoqAQAI.x?p=

I stumbled upon this unconventional method on the Renaissance Woodworker. It's originally interceded for pins 1st but I tried it tails 1st and it worked. I think it suits me better than the conventional method 8). The first time I tried it I followed the video, pins 1st and all. It went slowly and the saw jumped out of the kerf all the time. The second time I tried it tails 1st, and I only started the cuts with the saw hanging on my pinky (about 5 mm into the cut), and then finished the cuts in the upright position. Much quicker

Sam

 

[rileytoolworks]

Interesting technique, not seen it before. Makes you wonder how it was arrived at....

By the way, the link works better like this...http://blip.tv/play/hagkgoqAQAI.x?p=

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I liked the scrap wood on the holdfast - I'd not seen that before.

 

[J_SAMa]

I liked the scrap wood on the holdfast - I'd not seen that before.

That IS one of those "why didn't I think of this before" things.
But what do you think about the dovetail sawing?

 

[GazPal]

Stick to standard technique rather than the one shown. It's far easier to work to accurately placed pencil lines and saw with the tool held in it's intended orientation. It's all too easy for one to register a saw blade out of plumb when held inverted.

Gluing a scrap of leather to the face of your holdfast most often bypasses the need for packing pieces when work holding.

Knifed cross-grain layout lines tend to prevent blow-out in the saw cut and his chisel work leaves much to be desired.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I'm with Gary - looks like pretentious nonsense to me. Knife cuts marking it out will give you a line that's just fine for starting out.

E. (in a bit of a grumpy mood, TBH)

 

[johnwc812]

Hi
Am I being too critical? But what a load of cr**.
Timber far too high in the vice.
Any competant woodworker should be able to saw 15-20mm true and to a line (in the traditional way).
To saw the tails - tilt the wood in the vice so half the lines are vertical and saw.
Tilt the other way and saw to the other lines.
The pins are easily sawn if I position myself slightly to the left for half of them, slightly to the right for the rest.
I grant that removing the waste can be done in various ways. I prefer a coping saw then a bevel edge chisel.
Cheers John

 

[J_SAMa]

Hi
Am I being too critical? But what a load of cr**.
Timber far too high in the vice.
Any competant woodworker should be able to saw 15-20mm true and to a line (in the traditional way).
To saw the tails - tilt the wood in the vice so half the lines are vertical and saw.
Tilt the other way and saw to the other lines.
The pins are easily sawn if I position myself slightly to the left for half of them, slightly to the right for the rest.
I grant that removing the waste can be done in various ways. I prefer a coping saw then a bevel edge chisel.
Cheers John

Hi John,
Well, I guess there's more than one way to do anything. None of them are "right" or "wrong".
Sam

 

[jadboog]

Interesting method, but I can barely control a saw with a proper grip, let alone my pinky /\

Any suggetions for videos with the traditional method?

 

[GazPal]

Interesting method, but I can barely control a saw with a proper grip, let alone my pinky /\

Any suggetions for videos with the traditional method?

I'd recommend youtube vids by Paul Sellers for more traditonal dovetailing methods.

 

[Dangermouse]

I'm with Gary - looks like pretentious nonsense to me. Knife cuts marking it out will give you a line that's just fine for starting out.

E. (in a bit of a grumpy mood, TBH)

Totally agree !!

 

[J_SAMa]

Interesting method, but I can barely control a saw with a proper grip, let alone my pinky /\

Any suggetions for videos with the traditional method?

I learned to do dovetails (and am still learning) from Rob Cosman's video. His video is slightly faster than Paul Seller's. In addition to that, Rob Cosman cleans the dovetail floors with chisels whereas Paul Sellers just put the joint together straight off of the coping saw :shock: (which is a little too hard for me)...

Sam

 

[carlb40]

I haven't seen the Rob cosman videos or the over rated paul sellers ones. If you want slow and methodical search youtube for David charlesworth, he takes things slow

 

[AndyT]

Each to his own, and granted that he was going slowly so as to explain it, but it looked very clumsy and inefficient to me. I think I will stick to the conventional way.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

+1 I would want to see it done quickly before judging it.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I think that method would work well using a heavier saw. A lightweight saw will bounce around, a heavier one (nice thick brass back) will be more inclined to stay vertical. The design of handle (tote, toat, whatever) would probably have an influence, too - a handle that would just hang neatly vertical on the curled-round fingers of the sawing hand would be ideal, but that handle shape may not correspond precisely with the comfortable hang and shape for use conventionally in 'horizontal' mode.

Interesting, but it takes enough practice to perfect good sawing technique by conventional methods - I'm not sure it's a good idea to corrupt hard-won normal technique with novel methods. Tool up for and thoroughly learn one method or the other, but it's possibly not a good idea to expend valuable time perfecting multiple methods.

 

[Jacob]

I think he is just showing off how easily he can cut DTs even if he holds the saw in a silly way.

Paul Sellers' video here. Very competent. Note the fine taper on the pencil!
In old work they are usually more finished than this, even cheap stuff done at high speed - with deep gauge lines to the shoulders and chiselled out slightly undercut between pins and tails.

They all show off with high speed DTs (Cosman, Krauz etc) but I think it's useful as in reality they were done very quickly in ordinary work. You can see the shortcuts and rough details in all manner of work. The only thing that mattered is that the drawer was held together reasonably neatly. DTs weren't for display, they were just a practical joint and nobody would be interested in them.

 

[GazPal]

Each to his own, and granted that he was going slowly so as to explain it, but it looked very clumsy and inefficient to me. I think I will stick to the conventional way.

He's like that (Clumsy and inefficient) all of the time Andy and I hope to goodness it's simply a case of camera fright, because he runs and teaches woodworking courses based around hand crafting. :shock:

---------

You could try this saw Sam :wink:

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.a ... at=1,42884

 

[AndyT]

I think he is just showing off how easily he can cut DTs even if he holds the saw in a silly way.

Paul Sellers' video here. Very competent. Note the fine taper on the pencil!
In old work they are usually more finished than this, even cheap stuff done at high speed - with deep gauge lines to the shoulders and chiselled out slightly undercut between pins and tails.

They all show off with high speed DTs (Cosman, Krauz etc) but I think it's useful as in reality they were done very quickly in ordinary work. You can see the shortcuts and rough details in all manner of work. The only thing that mattered is that the drawer was held together reasonably neatly. DTs weren't for display, they were just a practical joint and nobody would be interested in them.

I agree. It's interesting to take old stuff apart and see how it was made.
There's a lot of fascinating material in Henry Mayhew about the cabinet making trade in late nineteenth century London and how makers were forced into taking every shortcut possible - descending from efficient and quick techniques into "slop work" which was good enough to sell but would not last.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I haven't seen the Rob cosman videos or the over rated paul sellers ones.

Nor have I, and because I haven't seen either video I have no idea if the one by Paul Sellers is overrated. How did you make your assessment if, as you say, you haven't seen it? Slainte.