Again another table saw dilemma :?

[AndyAntoniou]

Hi all!

I bought a cheap FERN crappy table saw for about £150 about 3 years ago to do some DIY in the house. My naivety I just thought its cheap cuz it’s not made to be used much. I Made some shelves, installed about 10 doors, tbh its made my life a lot harder cuz of the inaccuracy of the fence (I won’t even bother mentioning the "miter" on it) making most projects not as good as they could be; never flush and wasting time trying to straighten things up. The blade actually wobbles until it hits full speed. It doesn’t have a soft start and the noise that comes off of it is just stupid. This making me VERY sceptical about buying a new one and how much to spend on accuracy. (Hence the HUGE post )

Now I have been getting more in to wood working as a hobby I HAVE to get a decent one. So the past couple of weeks I have been reading all over and wrecking my brain as to what to buy. (And not writing anything down, typical me) This forum has been the biggest help by far. I tried to write up what I think the pros and cons are of the 3 saws I'm thinking of buying. Its seems the TS 200 is the most sensible buy, but I'm still not sure cuz of the experience with the saw I have, I think its cuz they look they look very similar, but from what I have read on here the TS 200 is far superior. That’s what’s made me add the much bigger and more expensive AW10BSB2 to the list.

Anyways, any help would be greatly appreciated. I'll post the project I'm working on in the projects forum, again it’s turned out ok, but too many mess ups cuz of my current TS and my learning ofc!

Here goes...


Axminster TS-200 Complete Table Saw & Extractor £488.95

Pros:

Cast Iron top
Extension table
Sliding table
Dust extraction (don’t know how good this is)
Shipping will be cheaper, or I can pick it up next time I’m over to visit family in London.
For the price of this compared to the AW10BSB2 I could probably get a AWEPT106 Planer Thicknesser as well...


Cons:

Buying more blades.
Stand looks like the cheap one I had and i doubt it will be very stable, I could be wrong but I could also just build a stand like people have done on here.
Poor fence, but upgradable. I called Axminster they said they have a better fence for 17 pound... sounds a bit cheap to me. The band saw stand seems too short for the extension table, does anyone know?
Also on the pics of the Complete Table Saw & Extractor it shows 2 different fences, one looks like it covers the whole table top. Maybe I should call them again and ask tomorrow.


Axminster Trade Series AW10BSB2 Saw Bench & Extension Table - PACKAGE DEAL £1,151.40!

Pros:

Cast Iron top
Extension table
Sliding table
10 inch blade (I already have about 3 cheap (40 euro ish blades) and 2 decent Bosch blades)
All-round a better table?? Or just over kill?


Cons:

Shipping will cost a bomb, Axminster told me I won’t be able to pick it up as it’s too big for a car.
Price, including shipping it will cost more than double.
The actual space it takes up.


Dewalt DEWALT DWE7490X (new version of the DWE744) £550, price includes shipping from the US

Pros:

Very Good fence
Already have 10inch blades
Reading reviews one of the best saws around for the price.
Dado blade!!
Easy blade change, riving knife and guard removal (esp. handy for changing to the dado)
Ripping up to 24" without extension table
It’s Dewalt!

Cons:

A bit worried about running it on a site transformer regarding the 50 and 60 Hz diff from the states. Reading what people say around the net its mixed views if the saw could burn out or not.
Aluminium Top

I thought I'd add that I also have a Bosch Miter saw and and kreg portable router table (Black and Decker router that's gonna be upgraded to a Triton TRA001 next month)

 

[heimlaga]

As you live in Belgium I would suggest that you take a sertious look at the secondhand market. The prizes on secondhand machiney are insanely low in the western half of Germany and I doubt they are much higher closer to you. People in Finland and Sweden buy old machines unseen down there and pay shipping and still consider them good deals.

For 400 euros plus 300 in rebuild costs you should get a very good second hand table saw that is at least as good as the more expensive saw from Axminster.

I am not a fan of aluminium topped saws for stationary use. If you intend to carry it around all the time an aluminium top would be appropriate even if it is inferrior in use.
According to my father who is a retired electrical engineer some american 50 hertz motors may overheat when run on european 60 hertz electricity. We reserached the matter once when I was thinking about a sertain machine.

Buying a good saw once in a lifetime is no more expensive than buying two inferrior saws.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Jacob]

Yes second hand, cast iron and induction motor. Sliding table amazingly useful too.

 

[AndyAntoniou]

Thanks guys!

Any idea what make/model to look for Heimlaga? Should I just look on something like ebay?

Thanks

Andy

 

[heimlaga]

There are so many good models that I do not know them all.
I would say that you should define the size of table saw you want and then try to find the one that is most solidly built regardless of brand and model as long as it is made in Europe west of the Iron Curtain (or in Checkoslovakia where they made some good machinery despite being an east bloc country). There were dozens and dozens of makers of high end woodworking machines in West Germany and Austria and France. Felder has a very solid reputation and are still around. Their elderly models from the 70-ies can sometimes be found cheap.

I would start by looking at some adverticement sites where ordinary people and small businesses advertice surplus stuff for sale. I do not know what you have in your area but there has to be such a site or maybe several. Usually they demand you to pick up the stuff but there are usually ways to work out the logistics.

If you have acsess to three phase electrisity you should buy a saw with three phase motor. Three phase motors have much more torque and put less strain on cables and fuses compared to single phase. A 2,2 or 3 KW three phase motor should be big enough for most jobs. If you have only single phase you have to figure out the maximum power output through your fuses as that may be a limiting factor.

Some elderly saws lack riving knife and guards. Unless you are handy with a metalworking you should steer clear of those. Top guards are almost always missing but can easily be retrofitted.

Good luck!!!!!

 

[woodcrafter]

Important points for table saw selection:
1. Get the one with the best, easiest to set and adjust, strongest, straightest, longest fence you can. The fence dictates how well your wood will go through the saw.
2. Cast iron is generally good but there is no rule which says that all cast iron is always flatter than aluminium. If you want any measure of portability then go for aluminium.
3. Spend you money on really, really good blades. Do some research and fit the absolute best rip and crosscut blades you can afford. It is the blade that does the cutting, not the saw. I would much rather have a so-so table saw fitted with a high quality blade that t'other way around.
4. Think ahead to what sort of wood you will be cutting. Big 8x4 boards need a certain kind of saw with table extensions. Ripping down wide timber into smaller widths takes power and a large diameter blade. Working with smaller stuff will require accuracy and precision. No one table saw will deal with every cutting need well. You will have to compromise a bit but do so wisely.

 

[AndyAntoniou]

Thanks for the Info guy, solid advice!

Ive been scouring the net the past couple of days on eBay and a few backrput/auction sites looking for a decent machine. The thing I'm thinking is; most saws seem to need quite a bit of work. I'm not too sure if I'm capable/have the knowledge of being able to fix up a machine... :?

There' one I cant make out the make of it, looks like a good price and in quite good condition, but i cant post links to show it :S

I can really fit any sheet goods bigger than 4ft x 6ft In my car so I will probably get most sheets cut and/or delivered. I think for the projects I'm looking at in the near future will be cupboards/storage for my garage/shop. and then projects around the house and slowly moving to bigger and nice things. So I don't really need a huge saw, but like you guys say, better to buy a decent one now and its good for ever. I've also seen some combination machines, are these worth looking at?

I do have three phase in my garage

Again, Thanks for the advice!!

 

[AndyAntoniou]

So I've worked this saw to be an SCM SI-15 - I've looked it up a bit on the net seems like a decent model.

I'll look a bit more tomorrow as well. :twisted:

 

[AndyAntoniou]

I've also found a LUREM C36 combo machine: planer/jointer/saw/shaper/mortiser/tenoner for about 900 Euro. Anyone have any experience with LUREM? I only seem to find french pages about them online...

 

[nathandavies]

used a lurem combi at someones workshop, very good. even though I have more machines than I need, if I saw one at the right price I would still buy it, just because it would be a good back up.

 

[Shrubby]

Lurem have closed. They were part of Metabo group for a while along with the woodworking side of Emco
Record power also sold some of the machines so you could check with them and Metabo for spares or unusual wearing parts before buying an old machine
Matt

 

[PAC1]

I had a Lurem as my first machine. It was very good. I think Lurem were a French company. If you can get spares it sounds good value

 

[AndyAntoniou]

Thanks for all the replies and advice!!

I was very close to bidding on the SCM saw. But taking in to the consideration its foot print, I think I'm gonna go for the TS 200 or the Dewalt. I don't cut over 6 foot pieces that often to justify a table that doesn't move, It would take too much space and moving things around it. I currently have cupboards in front of my garage door with space behind (I left about a foot between the garage door and the cupboards to store sheet goods) and on top (I made some rails on the cupboards for long stock). I could move all of that to a side wall to be able to open the garage door for longer cuts when needed, but I think its still too much re-arranging and still taking up too much space for the occasional long rip.

I spoke to Axminster today, technical sale person said if I take the TS-200 full package told it comes with a longer rip fence, he said it has better fence than the standard saw (the extended side table upgrades the fence to a 600mm fence, like in the pics on their site) so no need to upgrade it. I've asked them for a quote for shipping it to Belgium.

I also spoke to a big company that sells transformers in the UK and he said he would be surprised if the Dewalt table saws weren't 50/60Hz compatible. I've sent an email to Dewalt asking but they wont give a definitive answer, I think its cuz they don't want to say it will work and be responsible for anything that could/might happen.

So I think... from what people say on here, I trust u all!! the TS 200 seems like the best bet especially as their after sales is so good...

Again thanks for all your help!!

BTW iscase anyone is else is searching.. it does seem like Lurem spare parts cant be found any more....

 

[eezageeza]

Re the transformer question - FWIW I bought a dewalt CMS from the states many years ago - probably 12-15 years - and have run it ever since off a site transformer. No problems yet!

 

[heimlaga]

Why are you getting a plastic/aluminium single phase 110volt saw if you can get a much better three phase saw with cast iron table for only a little more money? I think you are doing your previous misstake over again. Buying the tool that is most agressively marketed and not the best that can be found for a given budget.
DeWalt isn't as good as their marketing claims........ not in my oppinion at least. I have run one of those single phase DeWalt saws quite a bit some 12 years ago and indeed it was a fully working table saw but nothing more than that. Pretty frustrating to use in fact. It was brand new than and of cause they might have gotten better since but I have some doubts.

There are plenty of small three phase table saws on the market and some of them are in good condition. I think you need more time to look around until you find the right one. If you find an Ejca L18 (also sold under the name Luna) or any of it's predecessors that is an exxellent saw. My cousin recently bought a 15 or 20 years old Luna L18 secondhand ready to run for 400 euros if I remember the amount correctly.

By the way Lurem has a good reputation and SCM an even better. I would not worry too much about parts no longer supplied if the saw is in good condition from the beginning. A table saw with three phase motor and belt drive with a separate arbour is in fact has few parts that cannot be substituted. A direct drive one is only a little worse.
Ball bearings are standard parts. So are electrical switches and cables. So are saw blades. So are drive belts. Any local motor rebuild shop can rewind a three phase motor if it burns. There are no brushes in theese motors so most likely it will run until the bearings give up and shifting the motor bearings is fairly easy for anobody who has done it before. Any local machinist can turn a new arbour if the saw arbour gets bent.

The choice is yours and only yours....... I have just told you my oppinion and you are free to form your own oppinion and do what you think is best for you......

 

[John15]

Hi Andy,
I have an AW10BSB2 saw from Axminster. The cost was around £650. It's plenty robust and accurate enough for my hobby work. It weighs around 150kg and the noise level is high, I would say at least 85db - I'm conscious of annoying the neighbours so only use it 9 - 12 Monday to Friday.
Cheers,
John

 

[AndyAntoniou]

eezageeza Thanks for that, it does make it a bit more reassuring.

heimlaga, Thanks for the long post I really appreciate your advice! I can see what your saying about maybe making the same mistake again. Maybe I do need to look more cuz I'm not really finding anything at the moment... The saws on the sites seem to jump a lot in price, plus the auction company puts another 16% on and then 21% VAT...
But, I don't have any experience in mechanics, granted i could learn, but with everything else in life I need something that works and if it breaks I can get it fixed ASAP. I don't really know anyone around my area that would be able to help me if something does go wrong. PLUS in Belgium, labor is so expensive; it would probably cost a bomb even if it breaks once (No one charges less than 50 - 60 euro an hour for anything over here).

About the foot print, I'm going to build a shed in March to put most of the junk/gardening tools/kids toys in, to really make the garage my work shop so I am now thinking of the AW10BSB2, its probably over kill for a hobby, the TS 200 would probably be enough... but i think its something that will last me forever. Whats your thoughts on that?

John, I'm not to worried about the neighbors. They seem to all be doing DIY around me as the labor is so much here. :? I was thinking of getting the whole package, from the price it seems you got the table saw, are you thinking of adding the side extension tables, or the sliding table?

Cheers,

Andy

 

[John15]

Andy,
I haven't had the need to rip any wide stuff like sheets of ply to warrant side extensions. But in any case my shed would be too narrow for them.
Cheers,
John

 

[AndyAntoniou]

John,

Whats the max rip without the table extension? The site only says 88cm with the table extension, doesn't say without... I thought it was 60cm...

Cheers

Andy

 

[John15]

Andy,
From the side of the blade the table edge is 220mm on the left side and 340 on the right, and the fence travels to just beyond (10mm) the right edge. I hope this is helpful.
John