Advice please - fixing battens in frame

[Sir Percy]

Hi there, just after some advice on fixing these battens in a frame to make a door for use outdoors:

I was just going to glue and screw, but I've just learnt about breadboard ends:

Should I carry on and fix to the back 'rail' with dowel / screw /glue?

Or try to use a fixing allowing for movement (as in the second picture) of the batten between the covering strip and the back rail?

Hope that's explained things. Grateful if anyone can help me recover from this newbie error!

Thanks,
Gav

 

[custard]

Hello Sir Percy, presumably your plan was to glue all the battens together, in the same way you've already done for the battens around the lozenge shaped window opening?

One option you've got is to not glue the battens together but to run a groove along the edge of each batten, fill the groove with a loose ply tongue (loose = unglued), secure each batten individually to the backing strip with a lugged screw.

Okay, it's not ideal and isn't going to win any joinery awards, but you are where you are. You'll probably get away with the section around the window not splitting as the cut out will relieve a lot of the wood movement stresses.

 

[Dan j]

Hi Gav.
Are the boards you're using going to be tongue and grooved or lapped in any way?

Usually with boarded doors you would leave some kind of room for expansion/shrinkage especially across the grain. This is hidden by the tongue.

If you want to use screws an allowance is usually needed to allow for movement. Preferably no glue.
Or a screw in the middle of the width of the board which allows for expansion/contraction either side of the fixing.
Option three which may not be an option in this case, but if you go old school door construction style and use nails they will flex slightly and allow for some movement. This however is best used for "character" style doors.

Where you've already joined the boards together around the window you definitely will need to make some allowance for expansion.

 

[Sir Percy]

Hi, thanks for the replies:

...presumably your plan was to glue all the battens together, in the same way you've already done for the battens around the lozenge shaped window opening?

No, I was going to leave them unjoined...

...One option you've got is to not glue the battens together but to run a groove along the edge of each batten, fill the groove with a loose ply tongue (loose = unglued), secure each batten individually to the backing strip with a lugged screw.

What's a lugged screw, please?

Okay, it's not ideal and isn't going to win any joinery awards.

No, I don't think there was ever any danger of that!

...Are the boards you're using going to be tongue and grooved or lapped in any way?
...
Where you've already joined the boards together around the window you definitely will need to make some allowance for expansion.

They weren't going to be t&g'd but will see what I can do with custard's suggestion above.
There is some allowance for expansion, but - and please don't laugh - I had this goofball idea of using putty in between the battens (the door will be painted using an oil-based paint eventually).

Cheers,
Gav

 

[custard]

...One option you've got is to not glue the battens together but to run a groove along the edge of each batten, fill the groove with a loose ply tongue (loose = unglued), secure each batten individually to the backing strip with a lugged screw.

What's a lugged screw, please?

Oops! Typo. I meant plugged screw.

By the way, apart from the hem, hem minor design issue, the quality of the work looks really tidy. Everything appears clean, accurately dimensioned, square, and pretty professional.

=D>

 

[Sir Percy]

Oops! Typo. I meant plugged screw.

Ah! got it, thanks

 

[Sir Percy]

and thanks for the kind comment (I know where the bodges are buried)

 

[deema]

I think if I've understood correctly you are placing a strip of wood on the inside to cover the end of the lattes, which gives you another option.

I would go with custards suggestion for loose tongues apart I would make them of the same wood as the lattes and glue them. Two reasons.
1. Ply does not skink and expand noticeably and will when the lattes shrink the ply will become exposed which is ugly.
2. I would actually glue the loose tonges in place, to form a complete panel, this will help keep the door square and true.

You need c2~3 mm clearance at each end of the lattes and the styles to allow for movement, and about 6mm at the top and bottom rails (it's very very humid in the Uk this summer so the wood will probably have expanded to the maximum it's ever likely to if sealed properly) . Use a soft rubber spacer to lift the now solid panel in the rebate to allow for equal spacing top and bottom. You can get inserts of this.

Glue to the cover on to the styles, take care to make sure it is only glues to the styles, a few pins help to keep them on and in position whilst the glue sets. Make sure you finish (colour, oil, varnish, paint etc) the lattes before you secure the cover. It will be a lovely door, and in fact, rather a traditional way of securing a panel into a door.

 

[Sir Percy]

I think if I've understood correctly you are placing a strip of wood on the inside to cover the end of the lattes, which gives you another option.

...

Glue to the cover on to the styles, take care to make sure it is only glues to the styles, a few pins help to keep them on and in position whilst the glue sets. Make sure you finish (colour, oil, varnish, paint etc) the lattes before you secure the cover. It will be a lovely door, and in fact, rather a traditional way of securing a panel into a door.

The cover strip is to go all around the edge of the frame.
So you're saying that the cover strip should only be glued to the stiles, does that apply to the pinning as well?

 

[deema]

Glue and pin it to the styles, top and bottom rail, you want the lattes to move freely inside the rebates.

Another trick instead of using rubber, is to nail the middle one or two lattes (centre of the door) to the frame to keep the latte panel central. One nail at either end, not two. Do not use screws. The nail(s) will move if necessary and bend without breaking where as a screw will not. This only works as long as your not using oak where the acids in oak will eat the nails quickly. Use a good sized nail, it's holding the lattes in the door frame.

I would also use a cover strip around the window, this I would just nail on. The cover strip will allow you to create a gap between it and the lattes for expansion) You can then use it subsequently to hold the glass in if it ever gets broken and you need to form a rebate to hold the replacement in.

 

[Sir Percy]

Glue and pin it to the styles, top and bottom rail, you want the lattes to move freely inside the rebates.

Another trick instead of using rubber, is to nail the middle one or two lattes (centre of the door) to the frame to keep the latte panel central. One nail at either end, not two. Do not use screws. The nail(s) will move if necessary and bend without breaking where as a screw will not. This only works as long as your not using oak where the acids in oak will eat the nails quickly. Use a good sized nail, it's holding the lattes in the door frame.

I would also use a cover strip around the window, this I would just nail on. The cover strip will allow you to create a gap between it and the lattes for expansion) You can then use it subsequently to hold the glass in if it ever gets broken and you need to form a rebate to hold the replacement in.

Right, got it, thanks!