Advice appreciated what plane?

[bennymk]

Hey guys, I've come into possession of some lovely Wenge. Problem is my planes don't like it one bit. Even my lie neilson no 8 is not happy, so I've been pondering for a while do I need a bevel up plane. Do you guys think low angle bevel up is the way to go. I don't like having load of plane (tools) really. I've only got a no 4 , block , no 4 converted scrub, and my no 8. My blocks bevel up but to small for stick removal.. it will mainly be for stock removal so would the Jack be better than the smoother? What's your experiences?

Kind regards

 

[custard]

Just hold off spending from your money for a few hours Benny, and I’ll prove to you that you’ve got all the tools you need!

 

[custard]

Here's some Wenge and a similar plane to yours,

And here are the shavings,

This planed surface is as good as it gets. In fact there's actually no particular need for a Lie Nielsen, here's the same Wenge with an old Record equipped with a standard issue Record iron,

And here are the shavings,

Once again, the planed surface is flawless and won't be improved upon no matter what plane you use.

None of this should be a surprise, after all Alan Peters made some of the finest furniture of the 20th century, in difficult timbers like old growth Indian Rosewood (which is more demanding than Wenge), using only a Record bench plane.

If you want a bevel up plane by all means get one, they're lovely tools so I can understand the appeal, however you don't need one for the task you face. All you need to do is go back to your plane and ensure everything's set up right and the iron's genuinely sharp, do that and I guarantee you'll achieve exactly the same results that I have.

Good luck, and now I'm going to salvage what's left of my tea break!

 

[ED65]

Cap iron bennymk! Any reasonably sound plane should be capable of tearout-free planing of tricky woods if their cap irons are set up correctly and set close enough.

The best old advice for planing difficult timbers was to get the cap iron "as close to the edge as possible" or words to that effect. In practice this means under 0.5mm to begin with, closer if needed (which it might be, depending on your piece of wenge).

Coupled with a freshly sharpened iron and thin shavings there should be nearly no wood you can't plane successfully, but there are the occasional pieces that are structurally incapable of being planed and then scraping or sanding is a necessity to complete the job.

 

[custard]

Cap iron bennymk! Any reasonably sound plane should be capable of tearout-free planing of tricky woods if their cap irons are set up correctly and set close enough.

I'm not sure that's good advice.

Wenge is hard and brittle, but not particularly prone to tear out , yet a closely set cap iron is strictly a tear out remedy. I didn't use a closely set cap iron in the above photos and there's zero tear out.

Maybe Benny can say what his specific planing problems are?

He mentioned he was trying to remove sticker stain, so in other words it's a rough sawn board and he's got a reasonable amount of material to remove. His current plane is fully up to that task. It's fairly hard work in a tougher timber like Wenge, yet it won't be much easier with a different plane, but it'll be harder work still with a closely set cap iron!

 

[tony_s]

I've worked wenge a few times over recent years and have to say, I've never thought of it particularly as a problem timber. All my BD planes have a back bevel- I wonder if this would be worth a try if it's not something you already do?

 

[custard]

All my BD planes have a back bevel

I'm not sure that's great advice either Tony!

A back bevel does the same job as a closely set cap iron, it's a cure for tear out. But both these remedies share the same down side, they make planing physically harder work. So the sensible woodworker uses them only when strictly necessary. Given that Wenge isn't a particularly tear-out prone timber I'd first be looking elsewhere for a solution.

So before buying new planes, or experimenting with back bevels or closely set cap irons, there's a very high probability that the real problem is actually right in the very basics of hand plane work. The iron isn't properly sharpened, the plane isn't correctly set, operator error, or the user hasn't appreciated that truing a rough sawn board of hardwood is actually quite hard work!

 

[richarddownunder]

It'd be interesting to know the specifics of the problem. I'm not sure if this is peculiar to me (and even relevant here) but I can't get a #8 to give a great finish, no matter how I try, my 100 year-old corrugated Stanley is good for flattening but that is all... even my really nice 51/2 doesn't work quite as well as a dedicated smoother in terms of getting a near perfect finish and transparent shavings, even with the mouth set fine (that is again probably more a tear out issue though). I don't really know why that is unless it relates to control of the smaller footprint and focus on a smaller area. So, depending on what the problem is, the #8 might not be the easiest weapon of choice, mine isn't anyway. Then it comes down to how well the #4 is tuned up and sharpened.

Cheers
Richard

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

It'd be interesting to know the specifics of the problem. I'm not sure if this is peculiar to me (and even relevant here) but I can't get a #8 to give a great finish, no matter how I try, my 100 year-old corrugated Stanley is good for flattening but that is all... even my really nice 51/2 doesn't work quite as well as a dedicated smoother in terms of getting a near perfect finish and transparent shavings, even with the mouth set fine (that is again probably more a tear out issue though). I don't really know why that is unless it relates to control of the smaller footprint and focus on a smaller area. So, depending on what the problem is, the #8 might not be the easiest weapon of choice, mine isn't anyway. Then it comes down to how well the #4 is tuned up and sharpened.

Cheers
Richard

Richard, this very likely has to do with the flatness of the sole. A plate with a flat sole can take a finer shaving than a plane where there is more space between the mouth and the wood. Longer planes, such as a #8, would exaggerate any irregularities in the sole, especially if there is a slight hump that lifts the mouth.

How well the blade is bedded also makes a difference, so check this too.

Closing down the chipbreaker will reduce any tearout that might occur with a deeper cut, but it will not alter the plane's inability to take a finer shaving.

Planes manufactured by companies such as Veritas emphasise sole flatness as part if their sales advertising, and this is borne out in practice. The Custom #7 and the BU jointer I have are capable of see-through shavings (not that I am really interested in such - I prefer final smoothing with a small plane).

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[richarddownunder]

Hi Derek

quite possible with the #8. Its a grand old lady and I'm not enclined to fiddle with it too much although did try to fettle it a little when I got it. The sole is in very good shape but I doubt it's perfect (haven't looked recently). The 51/2 is a Clifton with a perfect sole, solid bedding and feels great to use. I just get a better finish with a #4 in terms of tear out. It may be technique more than anything and only applies to difficult woods - maybe I need to reduce the mouth even further. I haven't used much more than a few small sticks of Wenge so don't know how it applies.

Cheers
Richard

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Richard

With regard the #5 1/2, there is likely nothing "wrong" with the plane, especially since it is difficult grain that has the issue. You need to either close up the chipbreaker - learn to do so if you have not as yet - or add a 15 degree micro backbevel to create a high cutting angle (60 degrees in this case). Either will sort out tearout, assuming that the blade is sharp, which I assume it is.

David C will extoll the virtues of the #5 1/2, and he knows this plane better than any other. It is a personal thing, but I do not find a place for the #5 1/2 (or #6) in my workshop. It is too long for smoothing boards that are partially or fully prepared by hand, and too short for jointing when one has a #7, and too wide and cumbersome for thinner edges. Of course, it is perfect for all tasks when there is nothing else! It was the first bench plane I purchased a few decades ago, but I did have a #3 at the time - still have it and prefer that size for smoothing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[bennymk]

Some great answers guys cheers, I shall hold of and look more into my planes, sharper and set right is the order of the day. I've been having no problems planing big chunky oak, just this wenge.

 

[Trafalgar]

Check your plane's sole for twist.

 

[richarddownunder]

Hi Richard

With regard the #5 1/2, there is likely nothing "wrong" with the plane, especially since it is difficult grain that has the issue. You need to either close up the chipbreaker - learn to do so if you have not as yet - or add a 15 degree micro backbevel to create a high cutting angle (60 degrees in this case). Either will sort out tearout, assuming that the blade is sharp, which I assume it is.

David C will extoll the virtues of the #5 1/2, and he knows this plane better than any other. It is a personal thing, but I do not find a place for the #5 1/2 (or #6) in my workshop. It is too long for smoothing boards that are partially or fully prepared by hand, and too short for jointing when one has a #7, and too wide and cumbersome for thinner edges. Of course, it is perfect for all tasks when there is nothing else! It was the first bench plane I purchased a few decades ago, but I did have a #3 at the time - still have it and prefer that size for smoothing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have a go at the back bevel when I use it next. I have never really explored that option.

Can't say I have used the 51/2 a huge amount but it is great for flattening rough-sawn boards (e.g guitar backs, sides and soundboards etc) due to it's heft and then I finish with a #4 which is also easier to plane on angles to the grain to ensure an even board thickness and minimise tear out (which is probably the main reason I get better results with a #4 when I think about it). I personally find the #8 too awkward for this intermediate size board. This is what I mean by planning on angles to the grain to achieve flatness... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp_7dcMkFGw

Anyway, none of this probably helps the OP with the Wenge issue. Just Googled it and there seems to be quite a bit on Wenge preparation on the net...e.g. https://www.talkbass.com/threads/wenge-tearout.1252359/ so tear-out can be an issue. There are also some useful tips here wenge-t30694.html . Also sound like it dulls cutters quickly and has horrible splinters so wear gloves and keep you tools sharp http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine- ... king-wenge . https://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/co ... ith_wenge/

Cheers
Richard

 

[ED65]

I'll have a go at the back bevel when I use it next. I have never really explored that option.

You might want to think about doing this on a spare iron, unless you're comfortable with losing the guts of a millimetre from your current one grinding the back bevel out to return it to normal for everyday work, which I think you'll likely want to do. Apart from it being a simpler honing job higher approach angles can increase planing resistance noticeably (especially the full 15 degrees that Derek has recommended above) with no benefit gained in easier-planing woods.

...maybe I need to reduce the mouth even further.

I don't know if you haven't seen any of the previous threads here that debate the respective merits of the options in controlling tearout but to précis it all, the cap iron trumps fine mouths and higher approach angles (and the two together).

Closing up an already tight mouth even finer as the sole means to controlling tearout is generally a losing proposition because there's only a finite amount of improvement it can provide, and you have to be happy with the 'death of a thousand shavings' it forces upon you. The cap iron is simply better at the job and there's no constant fear the throat will jam with shavings because the frog can be set well back.

 

[richarddownunder]

LOL 'death of a thousand shavings' yes that describes my last job - 10s of thousands probably and sharpening every 5 minutes. But I did get an almost flawless surface 2.2 mm thick in the end . I can set a dedicated plane with the back bevel - but perhaps not my Clifton 51/2 then - I have several good #4s so one of those can sacrifice a mm or so. I do have a ECE Primus set at 50° I think, which is supposed to be good for difficult grain but, I don't find it quite as easy to use, probably just familiarity with my Record and Clifton 4s. So, your reference to cap iron means setting it close and having it seating well? I usually set it fairly close (about 1 mm back) and have made sure all my planes seat well and have also made some conventional cap irons out of 3 mm stainless at one point which I thought improved the planes quite a bit. If there are any further adjustments, I'd be keen to give them a go though.
Cheers
Richard

BTW, OP, sorry, I seem to have hijacked your post.

 

[ED65]

So, your reference to cap iron means setting it close and having it seating well?

Yes having it seated properly is a must regardless of usage, but it shouldn't always be set close. Adjustment of the cap iron's position relative to the cutting edge is what gives the easy adjustability of any double-iron plane that is rightly valued, set it back for easy working where appropriate and moving it closer and closer to provide control over tearout as needed (at the cost of increasing resistance, hence why you don't want to leave it well forward all the time if it's not required). You set it well back for rougher work where you basically want the cap iron to get out of the way, closer than this for flattening/smoothing operations in easy-planing woods, closer still where the wood is proving challenging, and "as close as you dare" for wood that's really troublesome. Some numbers on this if you need them: 2-3mm, 1-2mm, 0.5-1mm, >0.3mm.

We all know seating is a must with cap irons and virtually every modern guide will show how to get it right so that not even a sliver of light is visible underneath, what's far less commonly included in these fettling guides is doing anything more than polishing the front of the curve. To work right as a means of controlling tearout the leading edge usually needs to be worked on, not merely smoothed and polished but giving it a small steep bevel. It should be well north of 45° but not so steep as to get closer to perpendicular; approximately 60° is a good sweet spot to aim for because if you're off in either direction it'll still work. This is, incidentally, why modern flatter cap irons (case in point) aren't working as well for some users compared to a bog-standard thin cap in a Bailey-pattern plane, because what angle is that?

 

[Woody2Shoes]

This is, incidentally, why modern flatter cap irons (case in point) aren't working as well for some users compared to a bog-standard thin cap in a Bailey-pattern plane, because what angle is that?

On the modern cap irons, I flatten off the leading edge a little - to make a sort of 'snub nose' - this helps the shaving flow over the leading edge of the cap iron at a good (i.e. steeper) angle. Cheers, W2S

 

[custard]

This is, incidentally, why modern flatter cap irons...aren't working as well for some users compared to a bog-standard thin cap in a Bailey-pattern plane

Who are these users? Do you have a link?

I use both an older Record and a Lie Nielsen with closely set cap irons, I can't tell any difference in their ability to tame tear out, both planes get the job done equally well.

 

[richarddownunder]

So, your reference to cap iron means setting it close and having it seating well?

Yes having it seated properly is a must regardless of usage, but it shouldn't always be set close. Adjustment of the cap iron's position relative to the cutting edge is what gives the easy adjustability of any double-iron plane that is rightly valued, set it back for easy working where appropriate and moving it closer and closer to provide control over tearout as needed (at the cost of increasing resistance, hence why you don't want to leave it well forward all the time if it's not required). You set it well back for rougher work where you basically want the cap iron to get out of the way, closer than this for flattening/smoothing operations in easy-planing woods, closer still where the wood is proving challenging, and "as close as you dare" for wood that's really troublesome. Some numbers on this if you need them: 2-3mm, 1-2mm, 0.5-1mm, >0.3mm.

We all know seating is a must with cap irons and virtually every modern guide will show how to get it right so that not even a sliver of light is visible underneath, what's far less commonly included in these fettling guides is doing anything more than polishing the front of the curve. To work right as a means of controlling tearout the leading edge usually needs to be worked on, not merely smoothed and polished but giving it a small steep bevel. It should be well north of 45° but not so steep as to get closer to perpendicular; approximately 60° is a good sweet spot to aim for because if you're off in either direction it'll still work. This is, incidentally, why modern flatter cap irons (case in point) aren't working as well for some users compared to a bog-standard thin cap in a Bailey-pattern plane, because what angle is that?

Thanks, that is an interesting bit of info. I'll have a mess about with a cap iron or two next weekend and see what happens - so, to make sure I have it right, just hone a small flat region (a couple of mm?) on the front of the cap iron at about 60°.

Cheers
Richard