If we're getting on to the related topic of thicknessing little strips, there was a good thread here which started on simple planing and scraping but led to some clever jigs and devices: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/smoothing-very-thin-1-2mm-thick-wood-t43046.html
1/12th size furniture - I need some advice....
- Thread starter Jensmith
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Sportique
Established Member
Hello Jen, welcome to the forum
This URL may help with the micro-thicknesser using a drill press.
http://www.luthiersfriend.com/index.html#overview
This is for purchase, but looks easy enough to "re-engineer".
By the way there was also an article on "poor man's Joint Master" on this forum - try the search engine.
:wink:
Dave
This URL may help with the micro-thicknesser using a drill press.
http://www.luthiersfriend.com/index.html#overview
This is for purchase, but looks easy enough to "re-engineer".
By the way there was also an article on "poor man's Joint Master" on this forum - try the search engine.
:wink:
Dave
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Something that hasn't been mentioned. With something like a fireplace you only need the outer face to be smooth planed/sanded. So it would be possible to plane the outer edge of a larger piece of timber, cut it on a band say to whatever thickness you need, possibly sand the edges if needed and you have your finished face and the piece of wood that you need.
The sawn face will be hidden from view, so why spend time and energy getting it to a perfect finish?
I have had a Startrite 301S for about 14 years now and wouldn't be without it. It will cut up to 8" thick or it will cut matchsticks. Perhaps a bit big for what you need, but if you get a band saw and treat it with respect it will pay for itself over and over. As has been said, there are some good small saws on the market, but I would advise you to get the largest one you can afford because you can always cut small on a bigger one, but you can't cut any bigger than the throat size. I too have done a bit of 12th scale, but mine is done on a lathe.
It still sounds to me as if you could do with getting into your dads garage Jen??
The sawn face will be hidden from view, so why spend time and energy getting it to a perfect finish?
I have had a Startrite 301S for about 14 years now and wouldn't be without it. It will cut up to 8" thick or it will cut matchsticks. Perhaps a bit big for what you need, but if you get a band saw and treat it with respect it will pay for itself over and over. As has been said, there are some good small saws on the market, but I would advise you to get the largest one you can afford because you can always cut small on a bigger one, but you can't cut any bigger than the throat size. I too have done a bit of 12th scale, but mine is done on a lathe.
It still sounds to me as if you could do with getting into your dads garage Jen??
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I see from your blog Jen that you use epoxy resin. If you are using very much at all it will be well worth looking at Zpoxy. I have used it for years making and repairing radio controlled gliders. It is as good as Araldite and a darnd site cheaper. Axminster sell it http://www.axminster.co.uk/zap-z-poxy-e ... prod23719/ .
I have both the 5 and the 30 min versions and use both. It was kept in my workshop all year long and after a couple of years the resin in the 5 min went very hard. I contacted a place in the U.K. that I have used for a while and asked if it were possible to get just the resin and was told that if I put that resin in a sauce pan full of boiling water for about 15 minutes it 'may' bring it back to liquid. I did just this and I once again have all of my Zpoxy ready for use. I was told that the resin can harden in sub zero temperatures. I may live a bit further South in France that Nice, but it don't arf get cold in the winter, -4.5c last winter!!!
Axminster is also good for your cynao/super glue too!
I have both the 5 and the 30 min versions and use both. It was kept in my workshop all year long and after a couple of years the resin in the 5 min went very hard. I contacted a place in the U.K. that I have used for a while and asked if it were possible to get just the resin and was told that if I put that resin in a sauce pan full of boiling water for about 15 minutes it 'may' bring it back to liquid. I did just this and I once again have all of my Zpoxy ready for use. I was told that the resin can harden in sub zero temperatures. I may live a bit further South in France that Nice, but it don't arf get cold in the winter, -4.5c last winter!!!
Axminster is also good for your cynao/super glue too!
Jonzjob":57ex8gx7 said:It still sounds to me as if you could do with getting into your dads garage Jen??
I wish I could, I really do as he has lots of stuff in there like a Boxford lathe etc etc but he's his own worst enemy and has collected so much stuff that a wall faces you when you open the door. He climbs over this to get in and the rest is little better! Any projects we did involved him rooting around for at least half an hour to get the drill or router or whatever out and then we worked on the patio. It's a lost cause.....:roll:
My only concern with leaving the back unfinished is the fireplace must fit flush with the wall of the dolls house or chimney breast depending on design. It would need to be at least flat.
You often view these side on when looking into the house so gaps at the back could look a bit messy.
The intention was also to sell as kits so it would be best if people couldn't mess up and end up with it looking a state.
They should be able to tell the back from the front but anything's possible!
Thanks for the tip with the glue.
I just thought of another point - I've been thinking about the best way to joint my wood.
Obviously the simplest way is a butt joint but if I'm selling the fireplaces in kit form this doesn't necessarily guarantee that they will end up square as people may or may not own something to square things up with.
I'm not really sure if I'm over complicating things and it would in fact turn out that most people would be able to make it up ok. What do you think?
I've thought about a simple half lap joint or similar or a mini dowel joint but I think the wood may not be chunky enough for that. It would have to be 2 or 3mm dia dowel probably.
I would think it would only need to be the main outer frame that would need this sort of joint as anything else could then be lined up with the then square frame.
Any thoughts?
I have a Seig C0 Mini mill / drill press that could probably cut a joint.
Obviously the simplest way is a butt joint but if I'm selling the fireplaces in kit form this doesn't necessarily guarantee that they will end up square as people may or may not own something to square things up with.
I'm not really sure if I'm over complicating things and it would in fact turn out that most people would be able to make it up ok. What do you think?
I've thought about a simple half lap joint or similar or a mini dowel joint but I think the wood may not be chunky enough for that. It would have to be 2 or 3mm dia dowel probably.
I would think it would only need to be the main outer frame that would need this sort of joint as anything else could then be lined up with the then square frame.
Any thoughts?
I have a Seig C0 Mini mill / drill press that could probably cut a joint.
9fingers
Established Member
Looking at this from a business point of view, you need to be minimising your input. So unless you can add a feature which will increase your profit then you are potentially losing out.
As regards the squareness, either sell miniature try squares to your customers or do something simple like provide a printed diagram with the outline of the fireplace etc and they glue the parts to the paper plan and to each other.
Bob
As regards the squareness, either sell miniature try squares to your customers or do something simple like provide a printed diagram with the outline of the fireplace etc and they glue the parts to the paper plan and to each other.
Bob
Just an in and out thought/prompt or two triggered by what Bob has just said.
The experience in model aircraft (or at least the road the industry has gone down) is largely pre-fabricated stuff - at much higher prices than would have been the case historically. The 'makers' these days are not, they have become just brands that buy from low labour locations in the East.
There's not a lot of the old style cut it out, glue and pin it down on a plan balsa stick and tissue construction about any more.
Like many things it used to be a lifetime hobby, with many years spent accumulating skills. Nowadays it still can be, and can still get very sophisticated and high rent, but there's equally quite a few that come in and out at lower skill levels, but throw money at it as a lifestyle choice for a few years.
Materials like composites (at the very high end), blow moulded plastics and various types of formed, moulded and cut rigid (e.g polyurethane and other) and low strength (e.g. polystyrene) foams have become common.
Where kits still use built/glued up wooden construction the old tissue and nylon coverings have been largely replaced by self coloured heat shrinking iron on plastic films with heat activated backing adhesives.
Where wood is still used in kits the use of (now very low cost) CNC controlled laser profiling systems has become common place - these cut out not just thin sheet balsa, but also quite heavy ply etc too with almost perfect accuracy. The old style cutting of parts out of sheet with a modelling knife is almost non existent.
CNC cutters of the type used by sign writers to die cut lettering etc from marking films are also used to make stickers etc.
There's quite a lot of high cost high tech high cost manufactured items in use, but relatively these have got very cheap too. Examples are radio control systems, engines, high tech electric motors and battery systems. A very large part of this market is (often as carded/bagged) accessories - e.g. control linkages, finishing materials, fasteners, adhesives, paints, films etc - often quite large brands in their own right.
Finally there's the usual 'us and them-ism' - the hobby is split up into 'tribes', each with their own very closed minded sub cultures. Competition/recreational, differing disciplines (helicopters/gliders/aircraft/boats/?), vintage/classic, scale replica etc.
Maybe there's some angles in there...
The experience in model aircraft (or at least the road the industry has gone down) is largely pre-fabricated stuff - at much higher prices than would have been the case historically. The 'makers' these days are not, they have become just brands that buy from low labour locations in the East.
There's not a lot of the old style cut it out, glue and pin it down on a plan balsa stick and tissue construction about any more.
Like many things it used to be a lifetime hobby, with many years spent accumulating skills. Nowadays it still can be, and can still get very sophisticated and high rent, but there's equally quite a few that come in and out at lower skill levels, but throw money at it as a lifestyle choice for a few years.
Materials like composites (at the very high end), blow moulded plastics and various types of formed, moulded and cut rigid (e.g polyurethane and other) and low strength (e.g. polystyrene) foams have become common.
Where kits still use built/glued up wooden construction the old tissue and nylon coverings have been largely replaced by self coloured heat shrinking iron on plastic films with heat activated backing adhesives.
Where wood is still used in kits the use of (now very low cost) CNC controlled laser profiling systems has become common place - these cut out not just thin sheet balsa, but also quite heavy ply etc too with almost perfect accuracy. The old style cutting of parts out of sheet with a modelling knife is almost non existent.
CNC cutters of the type used by sign writers to die cut lettering etc from marking films are also used to make stickers etc.
There's quite a lot of high cost high tech high cost manufactured items in use, but relatively these have got very cheap too. Examples are radio control systems, engines, high tech electric motors and battery systems. A very large part of this market is (often as carded/bagged) accessories - e.g. control linkages, finishing materials, fasteners, adhesives, paints, films etc - often quite large brands in their own right.
Finally there's the usual 'us and them-ism' - the hobby is split up into 'tribes', each with their own very closed minded sub cultures. Competition/recreational, differing disciplines (helicopters/gliders/aircraft/boats/?), vintage/classic, scale replica etc.
Maybe there's some angles in there...
jimi43
Established Member
I think Ian has nailed it there with his post.
Most of us here are traditionalists in as much as we prefer "proper" woodworking to IKEA
If we consider this analogy, the mass market prefers "ready made" but with a little effort added to provide a sense of accomplishment...something for the tribal elder to prove his/her worth!
I see you Jennifer, at the bespoke end of the market. If you are going to fabricate by hand and provide completed furniture or in kits, your target market is likely to be the high end traditionalist, the haute couture rather than the "off the peg at Primark" type of client. :wink:
Obviously there is a market for this custom product but it is smaller and therefore must command higher prices to make up for the lack of volume.
Your plan should therefore be to research the type of furniture that this market seeks but that which is not filled by other suppliers. Getting a niche and sticking with it is critical here.
Jim
Most of us here are traditionalists in as much as we prefer "proper" woodworking to IKEA
If we consider this analogy, the mass market prefers "ready made" but with a little effort added to provide a sense of accomplishment...something for the tribal elder to prove his/her worth!
I see you Jennifer, at the bespoke end of the market. If you are going to fabricate by hand and provide completed furniture or in kits, your target market is likely to be the high end traditionalist, the haute couture rather than the "off the peg at Primark" type of client. :wink:
Obviously there is a market for this custom product but it is smaller and therefore must command higher prices to make up for the lack of volume.
Your plan should therefore be to research the type of furniture that this market seeks but that which is not filled by other suppliers. Getting a niche and sticking with it is critical here.
Jim
Hi Jen,
I have taken some photos of the sanding jig but I am not sure how to get them to you. Maybe if you send me a pm I can email them to you. Also another thing to consider in the manufacture of your furniture is the use of cnc as someone else has mentioned, a good place to look for a cheap cnc machine that will do your job fine is to watch out for your local education authority auctions. Over here in Nireland they are held approx twice each year and good machines are always up for auction. The one I use each day and have made 1/12 furniture on it is Roland MDX40, schools are constantly changing machines and all manor of items from the technology depts are regular features in the auctions and usually sell for very affordable prices.
cgw59
I have taken some photos of the sanding jig but I am not sure how to get them to you. Maybe if you send me a pm I can email them to you. Also another thing to consider in the manufacture of your furniture is the use of cnc as someone else has mentioned, a good place to look for a cheap cnc machine that will do your job fine is to watch out for your local education authority auctions. Over here in Nireland they are held approx twice each year and good machines are always up for auction. The one I use each day and have made 1/12 furniture on it is Roland MDX40, schools are constantly changing machines and all manor of items from the technology depts are regular features in the auctions and usually sell for very affordable prices.
cgw59
Hi Jim,
I don't think I have the skill currently to produce the very expensive furniture where people make replicas of period furniture and then ask £250 + for it.
I did quite a bit of research based on what I had failed to find - fireplaces that don't require a chimney breast and that fit a certain style of firegrate but that on it's own doesn't make a business.
I saw a gap for fireplace kits as only one other company makes them. There are lots of fireplaces out there but at the cheap end of the market, often made out of plaster or resin.
My idea was to use photos of period fireplaces to reproduce fireplaces as what I would call the mid priced end.
Kits retail at ~ £15 with complete ones retailing at ~ £25-30. I would consider this towards the high end for a fairly small item of furniture.
My concern is being able to produce a product that is worthy and professional enough for the price I'm asking.
Lots of companies make dolls house furniture so finding a gap in the market is tricky.
I am also having problems finding a method of making some of the fancy decoration you find on period fireplaces. If you look at the style of Robert Adams in the Georgian period, his fireplaces are so ornate that it's difficult to reproduce.
Possibly you could use a scroll saw or cut out of some other thin material to make some of the patterns though this would be time consuming and so would mean you'd have to charge more.
unless there's somewhere I could get them cut cheaply.
I'm really glad I signed up on this forum. It's only been a week but I've learned so much already.
I really want to find a way to make this work.
I don't think I have the skill currently to produce the very expensive furniture where people make replicas of period furniture and then ask £250 + for it.
I did quite a bit of research based on what I had failed to find - fireplaces that don't require a chimney breast and that fit a certain style of firegrate but that on it's own doesn't make a business.
I saw a gap for fireplace kits as only one other company makes them. There are lots of fireplaces out there but at the cheap end of the market, often made out of plaster or resin.
My idea was to use photos of period fireplaces to reproduce fireplaces as what I would call the mid priced end.
Kits retail at ~ £15 with complete ones retailing at ~ £25-30. I would consider this towards the high end for a fairly small item of furniture.
My concern is being able to produce a product that is worthy and professional enough for the price I'm asking.
Lots of companies make dolls house furniture so finding a gap in the market is tricky.
I am also having problems finding a method of making some of the fancy decoration you find on period fireplaces. If you look at the style of Robert Adams in the Georgian period, his fireplaces are so ornate that it's difficult to reproduce.
Possibly you could use a scroll saw or cut out of some other thin material to make some of the patterns though this would be time consuming and so would mean you'd have to charge more.
unless there's somewhere I could get them cut cheaply.
I'm really glad I signed up on this forum. It's only been a week but I've learned so much already.
I really want to find a way to make this work.
jimi43
Established Member
Hi Jen
I think, reading your last post, that if you want to get into miniature intricate design then CNC would be the only viable method.
It looks like there are many helpers in this emerging hobby area and that the price of tooling is falling dramatically as interest increases and electronics become available.
I don't see how any manual process can achieve the level of accuracy and detail that is required at this level. Certainly not with any economically viable repetition.
I think you need to take one step back and widen your options before going down the wrong route entirely (bandsaws, millers, lathes etc.)
Jim
I think, reading your last post, that if you want to get into miniature intricate design then CNC would be the only viable method.
It looks like there are many helpers in this emerging hobby area and that the price of tooling is falling dramatically as interest increases and electronics become available.
I don't see how any manual process can achieve the level of accuracy and detail that is required at this level. Certainly not with any economically viable repetition.
I think you need to take one step back and widen your options before going down the wrong route entirely (bandsaws, millers, lathes etc.)
Jim
Hi jen,
Just sent you the photos, if you have access to a sharing facility on the web then maybe you post them on this forum for others. Just a quick note on your last post the patterns on Adams style furniture are not that hard to replicate on cnc machines and even pictures that are in bitmap form can be traced using a piece of software called inkscape(downloadable for free), this is widely used by others in another cnc forum that I am a member of and there are always designs similar to those you want being posted. Forgot to mention that a pattern / design traced using the afore mentioned programme is then saved as a dxf file and can be opened in autocad or exported into cad / cam packages for use with the cnc machines and don't require to much tweaking to get just what you want.
cgw59
Just sent you the photos, if you have access to a sharing facility on the web then maybe you post them on this forum for others. Just a quick note on your last post the patterns on Adams style furniture are not that hard to replicate on cnc machines and even pictures that are in bitmap form can be traced using a piece of software called inkscape(downloadable for free), this is widely used by others in another cnc forum that I am a member of and there are always designs similar to those you want being posted. Forgot to mention that a pattern / design traced using the afore mentioned programme is then saved as a dxf file and can be opened in autocad or exported into cad / cam packages for use with the cnc machines and don't require to much tweaking to get just what you want.
cgw59
cgw59":1s02lx6d said:
Thanks Cgw59, I got the photos. I have posted them on Flickr if that would be helpful to people: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jensmith25y/
Thanks for the information about the CNC stuff. I was wondering how I'd be able to model such fancy detail.
My fiance has been using Inkscape and really likes it so I might give that a try to see how I get on.
I'm used to using AutoCAD as I use it daily in my current job. That part shouldn't be a problem.
It would open up a few doors in terms of what I could produce.
9fingers
Established Member
Hi Jen,
It does seem to me that CNC might be the way for you to go. There are desktop sizes systems around or even kits to assemble your own. Usually you need to add a PC but that does not have to be anything exotic and maybe you already have an old machine that would be suitable.
There is lots of free/near free software and once you have got it all set up you just need a supply of the right sections of wood and set it going.
This would enable you to offer a wide range of designs and make them to order to save holding stock of ready made items.
With photo capture of new designs you could keep your range fresh and maybe even offering bespoke features such as engraving of initials or indeed your logo as manufacturer?
You could spend your money on the CNC kit (often less than £1000) and take up the offers already made to machine your stock sizes possibly spending less money than kitting up with the basic tools that you were originally thinking of.
Bob
It does seem to me that CNC might be the way for you to go. There are desktop sizes systems around or even kits to assemble your own. Usually you need to add a PC but that does not have to be anything exotic and maybe you already have an old machine that would be suitable.
There is lots of free/near free software and once you have got it all set up you just need a supply of the right sections of wood and set it going.
This would enable you to offer a wide range of designs and make them to order to save holding stock of ready made items.
With photo capture of new designs you could keep your range fresh and maybe even offering bespoke features such as engraving of initials or indeed your logo as manufacturer?
You could spend your money on the CNC kit (often less than £1000) and take up the offers already made to machine your stock sizes possibly spending less money than kitting up with the basic tools that you were originally thinking of.
Bob
Hi Bob,
As I'm pretty new to the CNC idea you don't happen to have a link or a model name to Google for the sort of thing you're talking about?
I've had a quick look but I'm not really sure what I'm looking for..
As I'm pretty new to the CNC idea you don't happen to have a link or a model name to Google for the sort of thing you're talking about?
I've had a quick look but I'm not really sure what I'm looking for..
9fingers
Established Member
try here
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trks ... Categories
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IIns3qbibc
and a homebrew made by a member here
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/my-n ... 19561.html
but sadly he seems to have deleted all the photos :roll:
maybe send a pm to FECN - the original builder?
hth
Bob
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trks ... Categories
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IIns3qbibc
and a homebrew made by a member here
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/my-n ... 19561.html
but sadly he seems to have deleted all the photos :roll:
maybe send a pm to FECN - the original builder?
hth
Bob
Sportique
Established Member
Jen,
you may have missed my comments higher up (near bottom of page 3) a link to an easily made Drill-press thicknesser etc.
Although it is a commercial jig there is enough info to make one quite easily IMHO.
There is a lot of good advice being given here - especially business advice, production methods (CNC etc), but, most importantly do your market research carefully - I looked into this market a few years ago and came to the conclusion that there were essentially two markets - those that want "hand-made" items at mass-produced prices (you cannot compete with the Chiwanese here), and those that want bespoke hand-made items with maximum detail - these people will often commision a 1/12th scale copy of their favourite furniture - the "real" collectors willing to pay serious money. Take care that you do not fall between 2 stools! Having said that, maybe you have identified a third market between these extremes, good luck
Dave
you may have missed my comments higher up (near bottom of page 3) a link to an easily made Drill-press thicknesser etc.
Although it is a commercial jig there is enough info to make one quite easily IMHO.
There is a lot of good advice being given here - especially business advice, production methods (CNC etc), but, most importantly do your market research carefully - I looked into this market a few years ago and came to the conclusion that there were essentially two markets - those that want "hand-made" items at mass-produced prices (you cannot compete with the Chiwanese here), and those that want bespoke hand-made items with maximum detail - these people will often commision a 1/12th scale copy of their favourite furniture - the "real" collectors willing to pay serious money. Take care that you do not fall between 2 stools! Having said that, maybe you have identified a third market between these extremes, good luck
Dave
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I saw the bit about yer Dads garage on the dolls house forum. That's why I mentioned it :twisted: :twisted:
If you could get the lathe liberated you could very easily make a sanding disk to fit. Then when everything is assembled it would be an easy job to sand the rear face of anything to make it completely flat. Just a little bit of care needed or you could get a very quick manicure and a dust vac to collect all the dust.. I have been using mine quite a lot on the tractors I have been commissioned to make. If you have a look at my photobucket site you will see the tractor and the small turned bits I did.
Sorry Jen, I missed the fact that there was a page 4! Is there any benefit in selling in kit form and would it not be easier for you to do the assembly? That was you would be sure that when it is fitted it is to the standard that you have set and not a possible bodge.
If you could get the lathe liberated you could very easily make a sanding disk to fit. Then when everything is assembled it would be an easy job to sand the rear face of anything to make it completely flat. Just a little bit of care needed or you could get a very quick manicure and a dust vac to collect all the dust.. I have been using mine quite a lot on the tractors I have been commissioned to make. If you have a look at my photobucket site you will see the tractor and the small turned bits I did.
Sorry Jen, I missed the fact that there was a page 4! Is there any benefit in selling in kit form and would it not be easier for you to do the assembly? That was you would be sure that when it is fitted it is to the standard that you have set and not a possible bodge.
