Who is in and who is out?

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Fair play Paul. Just to be clear I am accepting the result, we've had the referendum and the leave side won, I accept that and my post you objected to was actually saying that whilst many people are not happy with the result we have to accept it regardless of the numbers of non voters, and that another poster calling for another referendum is not on. I also really hope that I am wrong about the negative consequences for this country, the rest of Europe and the world. I'm glad that you did not vote leave because of demonising immigrants, many did however. My next great fear is Trump winning in the US with similar rhetoric to Farage (although somewhat more extreme)

 

[Rhossydd]

Have you been watching the BBC since the result was announced?

Not all the time, but a fair bit when I haven't been working.

A lot of people will be thinking that the BBC and others gave the leave campaign far too much uncritical exposure.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Many people who voted out voted out not because they demonise immigrants, but because they don't want 100,000s every year over whom they have no control. I am delighted that a highly skilled, coloured surgeon wants to make his and his family's life here - I'm not over the moon that we have no way of stopping a Romanian pickpocket with twelve children.

 

[Wuffles]

Many people who voted out voted out not because they demonise immigrants, but because they don't want 100,000s every year over whom they have no control. I am delighted that a highly skilled, coloured surgeon wants to make his and his family's life here - I'm not over the moon that we have no way of stopping a Romanian pickpocket with twelve children.

Lmfao, don't demonise immigrants much then? Unreal.


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[Rhossydd]

Romanian pickpocket with twelve children.

Meet many of them ?
I'm frequently in central London where these people supposedly cause trouble, but the nearest thing to that I've ever experienced is someone trying to wash the windscreen of my car unasked.

I really think you ought to get out more. Believing in the exaggerations and nonsense the tabloids have peddled is causing a lot of unnecessary hatred and anger.

 

[Noel]

I half suspect that for the next few months the EU will be really nasty to us, then there will be some sort of olive branch, a suggestion from within our parliament for a new referendum, and all those who its claimed have just gone OMG what have we done, will be invited to correct their mistake by voting the official way.
Isn't that what happened to Ireland when they reject the Lisbon Treaty.

Ireland likes their referenda, 40 or so held over the years. The adoption of same sex marriage being the most well known. The first Lisbon Treaty referendum was accompanied by much the same nonsense that was evident in the run up to Thursday's vote. Everything from free abortions on demand to abandoning neutrality. Think the result was 55-45 rejecting the treaty. Another was held a year or so later and with all the scare rumours being seen simply as general discussion as opposed to "fact" the treaty was accepted by 70-30 approximately. It was a sensible move: people were more informed, both sides knew they couldn't pull the wool over the eyes of the electorate. It wouldn't be the worst idea to rerun this current referendum again in 12 months.

 

[Jake]

Many people who voted out voted out not because they demonise immigrants, but because they don't want 100,000s every year over whom they have no control. I am delighted that a highly skilled, coloured surgeon wants to make his and his family's life here - I'm not over the moon that we have no way of stopping a Romanian pickpocket with twelve children.

By coloured do you mean someone who has a skin complexion of a colour which does not vary from between a pinkish-tanny-white to really quite brown dependent on UV levels?

To have a right to remain under EU law you have to be looking for work and if you have not found it within 6 months you can be booted out. Pick-pocketing with or without children does not count.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

OK, I get it now, it's not about demonising immigrants, it's just that they're pick pockets with 12 children ???????

 

[n0legs]

I heard this morning that a local Scrabble group has now split into a Remain Scrabble group and an Exit Scrabble group,

And Exit wins again :lol:
Exit= 11 points
Remain= 8 points

Irony, excellent :lol:

 

[dexter]

I wasn't for out, but I had a gut feeling that the leave campaign would be successful and it was.
OK,, I will accept that as disappointed as I am.
What I now find is totally incredulous is that, considering the sh-t storm that has been generated not only in the UK but in Europe as well, apart from the Prime Minister chucking his ticket in, (and I don't blame him for that), none of the main players in the leave campaign have apart from a brief appearance yesterday in front of the press, actually spoken to the country about what they want or expect to happen now.
Millions of people are scared stiff about what is going on now and Boris Johnson takes himself off to play cricket whilst the most the media can get out of Michael Gove was,"good morning" as he walked down the street.
The leave campaign have changed the UK's history and future forever but appear to have taken the weekend off after day one, I say shame on them.
Meanwhile back in the EU the main players are getting together to formulate their response to the decision and it ain't going to be pretty.
Where is the leadership that the UK now so desperately needs? I honestly think that Johnson, Gove, and the rest of the main players in the leave campaign are in shock at what they've brought about. In the last few months not one of them it seemed could miss an opertunitiy to apear before the cameras and promote their urge to! "Take back control" well the ball is firmly in their court now but where are they?
Or is it a situation of, "we've made the bullets, it's up to someone else to fire them",
The futures of tens of millions of UK citizens are now in the hands of those politicians who sought to take them out of the EU. They should at least have the courage of their convictions to jump straight in and reassure those tens of millions that they are enthusiastically persueing the promises that they made.
Whether we voted in or out we must accept the decision, but for those who brought us here at their bidding to then
pipper of for a game of cricket or say no more than,"good morning" is an insult to us all.

 

[rafezetter]

Sour grapes? It's not a game, many lives will be adversely affected if this goes ahead, many firms will go to the wall and many people will lose their livelihood. .

You mean like all those people in the UK's Tata, Thamesteel, SSI and Caparo plants because of EU legislation and other factors linked to our current govt and EU membership?

Forget about them did you? Convenient.

We know it's not a game Noel and to say otherwise is extremely disrespectful to all posters on both sides who have commited a lot of time and effort to their posts.

We voted, and we had a result, but because things didn't go your way you are having a pi$$y fit and seemingly holding the out voters on the forum responsible when the entire United Kingdoms took part.

This is how democracy works, if you are not happy living under it's protection, you can always move to N Korea or China.

Or maybe you could stuff yourself back in your box and pipe down because you have no idea how this will pan out longterm either.

Or, seeing as we could well continue be members for at least 2 years, you can relocate to one of the other european countries and work from there - but somehow I think you like the fact that the Pound is strong against the Euro, which it has thus remained, regardless of the decision.

You must be fun at parties. Later.

A flippant and empty reply.

Setting aside my remarks and suggestions as to what you can do about the situation, is that the best you can do to reply to my valid points about how thousands of jobs in the steel industry across the UK have been lost, in large part, due to EU legislation in the last 5 years? (and lets not forget the fisheries, and a whole bunch of others in the last couple of decades, plus those barely clinging on by their fingernails)

You are shouting quite loudly and pointing fingers at the out voters about how we have ruined the country and your business whilst at the same time completely ignoring some glaring proven facts about the EU's actions having a detrimental affect on our core industries.

I've checked your post history Noel and you've never once made any sort of post in sympathy to the plight of any major industrial loss in the uk, but maybe that's because it wasn't YOUR business affected, so it didn't really matter. Of course there are plenty of other members whom have also not posted such sympathy to those people, but they are not hopping up and down the way you are, demanding attention and pointing fingers.

You are showing exactly the same mentality and disdain for those people as the EU leadership did for them. The irony is staggering.

And you are quite right, I'm socially awkward and not very good at parties at all.

But that doesn't make me wrong, at least about your behaviour, does it.

 

[rafezetter]

Are you suggesting it would be more just for quite a bit less than 37% of the electorate, the Remainiacs, to keep the country in Europe when the rest didn't vote for that ?

No. I'm pointing out that 17m people out of a population 65m isn't much of a real majority for such radical damaging change.

There are not 65 million registered voters ...... (edited)

There are about 46.5ish - and of those 33 million voted or.... 72% of the registered voters, as has been stated a thousand times on every major news net on earth. Do some basic mathematics; 33 million isn't 72% of 65 million.

The rest don't qualify for a vote so their views, however they may have been, don't count, on both sides. Just as it has always been in democracy. As I said to Noel, this is how it works, it's suited you just fine before but now you didn't get the outcome you wanted you don't like it. You and all the others in the remain camp are like the two old brothers in that film "Trading Places" with Eddie Murphy and Dan Akroyd in the scene near the end when they have lost all their money and are screaming at the stock exchange machines to "turn them back on"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K0oYcGD9V0 (having just watched it again, the similarity is closer than those in the remain camp might be comfortable with) tough.

Edit - I've just found this:

For anyone regretting 37% of the electorate trying to get us out of Europe might like to sign this
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

So it looks as though you can't even get your figures right within your own posts because 17 million isn't 37% of 65 million either, OR the post above about 65 million was a deliberate attempt to strengthen your point by quoting false information.

As for posting that petition, do you SERIOUSLY think that will happen? What would you do if the same result ocurred? Try again?... and again.. and again? making a complete mockery of the democratic system.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

We knew from the opinion polls that the result would be close - it could easily have been the Leave camp bleating about the outcome and wanting another referendum. So we should not be surprised and as a Remainer I accept that we had a vote and it went the wrong way for me.

I think both campaigns were a very poor reflection on our political processes and political leadership. Selective use of figures, half truths, denial, spin and soundbites characterised both campaigns.

But the issue now is what happens next - a few thoughts:

• 1. A "full strength" Brexit risks utterly alienating 48% of the population - not a socially responsible or politically attractive outcome.
  
  2. The longer the delay until Article 50 is invoked, the more likely it is that the realities of Brexit on jobs, investment etc will emerge. This may materially alter public support for the referendum result - justification far a 2nd referendum?
  
  3. We need to work with EU to extract ourselves - they are clearly somewhat shocked by the outcome which could lead to a fundamental reappraisal of the nature of the EU. Brexit could prompt them to re-appraise the overall direction of travel - although they have no track record in thinking so radically
  
  4. We could go for a Norway type deal ("Brexit lite") - as it stands this would not eliminate the free movement of people, but materially reduce the amount of EU legislation which needs to be incorporated into UK law, allow the UK to do trade deals outside the EU etc
  
  5. I have long thought that a two tier Europe would emerge - those joined by the Euro which it is clear requires much closer integration and the others which are capable of operating with far more individual national discretion. Brexit may be the trigger. UK may actually be able to lead the charge.
  
  6. There is a clear majority in the House of Commons for Remain. I am not sure whether legally the Head of State giving Article 50 notice needs a vote, but it is very clear that the mass of subsequent legislation would need parliamentary ratification. A Prime Minister would be utterly irresponsible to give notice unless there was high confidence that all major necessary legislative changes would be passed. A general election would be no guarantee of a House of Commons majority for the Leave campaign.

The UK is not alone in having a strong anti EU element - the core EU is running scared that the contagion may spread. At the moment they appear to be playing tough so as not to encourage the others. Delaying Article 50 - certainly by several months - could increase the pressure upon them, particularly if other member states also start to get pressured to hold their own referendum.

 

[rafezetter]

Curious as well that the EU wants us to Hurry Up after being so slow and desperately treacle like for years.

Nothing curious about, they want some sort of stability as fast as possible as our decision is hurting their currency too.

But it WILL take years to get out. There's vast amounts of legislation and treaties to wade through and repeal or replace and negotiations with other countries to handle. One certainty in this is that rushed legislation is bad legislation.
Even the simple practicalities of who actually is employed to do it will take long enough.
It will cost the country a fortune and we'll be untangling the mess for a decade or more.

All valid points worth discussing (now maybe we can get on the the actual dissection and speculation and lose the blame game aspect eh?), and I quite agree for most of it - I'm not so sure it'll be a lot of years, because pressure by big business to sort certain aspects will always be considered, and not forgetting the EU leaders themselves wishing to stem the tide.

Yes it will cost a fortune (but whether it'll be more than 9 billion a year is doubtful), and yes it'll be a mess, I don't think any of the vote leave have said any different, it's the longterm goal we are aiming for, I'm 46 so I doubt I'll see much of the growth that should come from this, but my nieces and nephews certainly should see a much brighter future, where their vote is actually worth something.

 

[paulm]

I wasn't for out, but I had a gut feeling that the leave campaign would be successful and it was.
OK,, I will accept that as disappointed as I am.
What I now find is totally incredulous is that, considering the sh-t storm that has been generated not only in the UK but in Europe as well, apart from the Prime Minister chucking his ticket in, (and I don't blame him for that), none of the main players in the leave campaign have apart from a brief appearance yesterday in front of the press, actually spoken to the country about what they want or expect to happen now.
Millions of people are scared stiff about what is going on now and Boris Johnson takes himself off to play cricket whilst the most the media can get out of Michael Gove was,"good morning" as he walked down the street.
The leave campaign have changed the UK's history and future forever but appear to have taken the weekend off after day one, I say shame on them.
Meanwhile back in the EU the main players are getting together to formulate their response to the decision and it ain't going to be pretty.
Where is the leadership that the UK now so desperately needs? I honestly think that Johnson, Gove, and the rest of the main players in the leave campaign are in shock at what they've brought about. In the last few months not one of them it seemed could miss an opertunitiy to apear before the cameras and promote their urge to! "Take back control" well the ball is firmly in their court now but where are they?
Or is it a situation of, "we've made the bullets, it's up to someone else to fire them",
The futures of tens of millions of UK citizens are now in the hands of those politicians who sought to take them out of the EU. They should at least have the courage of their convictions to jump straight in and reassure those tens of millions that they are enthusiastically persueing the promises that they made.
Whether we voted in or out we must accept the decision, but for those who brought us here at their bidding to then
pipper of for a game of cricket or say no more than,"good morning" is an insult to us all.

Most of the leave team, including Boris, aren't in the government, they can't do anything to make things happen or provide leadership, that's the job of Cameron and the Cabinet until a new leader is appointed.

 

[Benchwayze]

I wonder if we'll be able to return to calling a smoked haddock a smoked haddock, wherever it's smoked? :lol:

 

[doctor Bob]

I'm off to do things........... enjoy yourselves talking pinapples............. see you later.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... fraud.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eberg.html

facts, even if they are in the Mail. They're not all innocent - before someone works out the figures, I know it's a small proportion.

When some of you eventually come down from the moral high ground and stop to think - whose lives do you think these people's lives make hardest? Yes - the average, honest working immigrant who is tarred with the same brush, who just wants to keep his head down, live within the law, and make a better life for himself and his family. Pity really for him that some of you can't see it.

 

[Rhossydd]

There are not 65 million registered voters ...... (edited) ..........

A fine example of not reading what I wrote or understanding it.

lose the blame game aspect eh?

You think people are just going shrug this off immediately ? This has and will continue to cause deep divisions within the UK, especially if the more pessimistic forecasts prove correct.

 

[DiscoStu]

Guys, can I suggest that we lock this thread now and get back to wood working? This site is meant to be non political and I think it's run its course?

It seems to me that in 65 pages of opinions etc nobody has changed theirs and whilst debate is good, the vote has happened and therefore it's no longer a debate and is turning into a negative spiral of posts.

I think it would be better if this ended and we got back to sharpening arguments!

(Please note these comments aren't aimed at anyone, just think everyone will be better off if we move on)


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