You need to be sitting down ...

[BHolcombe]

I am sure that the reality of it is somewhere between our two extremes. I'm certain they work in batches but I'm highly suspect that we're talking such large batches so quickly.

Many (probably nearly all of them) are using trip hammers but that which is a huge dividing line is the gas forge, the traditionalist is using pine charcoal and it makes for a better product giving that the talent and ability is there.

If these guys were churning batches at that rate, no one would be waiting eight years for a set of chisels. My best guess is that a set of ten good chisels takes around 3 days to produce and an inexpensive set probably takes a few hours.

 

[iNewbie]

I am sure that the reality of it is somewhere between our two extremes. I'm certain they work in batches but I'm highly suspect that we're talking such large batches so quickly.

I dunno. He can get his skates on when he wants too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5OvpIGff2c

 

[Bm101]

0.52 He sits down the lazy sod.

 

[D_W]

It certainly looks like Dictum is taking a large part of that 500 euros, when comparing to the 278 euro from the Australian website for the same knife! And those Australians probably don't work for nothing either. I am afraid the blacksmith isn't getting rich from these knifes, he most probably doesn't make 125 dollar per hour, like many self employed craftsman he's lucky when he makes 50!

We have a retailer in the states that is pretty much double what Stu Tierney costs for any given item. I'm sure Stu isn't making much money, though, he's still got his day job last I heard. Nonetheless, that means there's a lot of room between Stu at X and retailer XYZ at 2X.

 

[D_W]

I am sure that the reality of it is somewhere between our two extremes. I'm certain they work in batches but I'm highly suspect that we're talking such large batches so quickly.

I dunno. He can get his skates on when he wants too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5OvpIGff2c

Unless there's something inconsistent about that video with what the guy does day to day, it looks like a lot of the work is still done by hand. In the second video of his, he's finishing an iron by hand with a sen. There is a knife maker who does the same thing, hand finish of their knives with sen and stones. Their knives are extremely expensive, but trying to make a few the way they do and to the same level of finish would probably illuminate why.

Certainly there is some premium pricing in his goods, but I'd be surprised if he makes more money than the average credentialed professional after the retailer takes their cut.

 

[woodpig]

Looks like a bargain.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/japanese-kir ... sel=110186

 

[G S Haydon]

I'm pleased to say the UK still has some last bastions of tradition that need supporting too. Made at very affordable prices compared to many offerings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44eGBJx45hg

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/sto ... 12.php?v=v

We even have dragon stories as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Geo ... the_Dragon

 

[Biliphuster]

Since they've been brought up, I can say I am very happy indeed with my Henry Taylor carving chisels. I ordered them all on the large handles as I find the standard ones they come with a bit small. They hold an edge despite the very acute angle I sharpen them at. It's amazing when you consider they are properly hand forged (rather than hot stamped in a die a la Pfeil) that they are so reasonably priced. I also love the black scale finish.

We are extremely lucky in this country to have great makers of knives, planes, saws, measuring tools, hammers, chisels etc.

 

[D_W]

Shigefusa, by the way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNPc6xBBiLk

 

[BHolcombe]

That is an excellent video David! I bet if one were able to peer into the shops of top smiths like Konobu they would look very similar to that of shigfusa.

Not so much giant batches and punched everything out in a hurry, and more detail oriented work.

 

[D_W]

That is an excellent video David! I bet if one were able to peer into the shops of top smiths like Konobu they would look very similar to that of shigfusa.

Not so much giant batches and punched everything out in a hurry, and more detail oriented work.

All of the great shops have the clean crisp subtle finish on every single tool. No duds.

Those operations looked pretty straightforward to me, small shops (literally a family in the shigefusa shop) and a lot of hand work.

 

[Corneel]

Thanks for that link David. I'm going to watch it tonight when I'm more relaxed.

My example was of course pretty charged. I suspect that would be more like how it works in a Pakistani sweatshop. And a lot of the work goes in the finish.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I didn't notice Mr. Shigefusa use a Damascus steel hammer ... :? :lol:
By the bye - this one is interesting for contrast -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nCnh2L1_M4

 

[BHolcombe]

Hah, when I see the few people actually adding to the work I wonder why they haven't been replaced by machines.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Hah, when I see the few people actually adding to the work I wonder why they haven't been replaced by machines.

Give it time, Brian - give it time. It'll happen.

Certainly a contrast between the old techniques and the new. I did wonder what capital investment went into the automated knife factory; they'd need to sell a fair few knives to break even. However - both methods are perfectly capable of making knives that will do what they're supposed to do.

I rather doubt anybody will set up such a factory making marking knives, the market not being big enough, but Narex have done something similar for chisels, at least in part - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gittWRq2Sjk

 

[BHolcombe]

Kiridashi are everyday utensils in Japan; marking knife but also carving knife, gardeners use them as grafting knives, etc etc.

I would imagine Henkles makes their money back quickly, those knives are sold in practically every store that sells cutlery in the Western world,

 

[Alexam]

Advertisers without stock, who wish to retain their position on search engines, simply increase the item's price to silly person level. Then adjust the price down when they do have stock. If they were to remove their advert, it would result in more costs to re-list the item. Perhaps it's me, but I thought everyone realised that.

Happy Christmas to all.

Malcolm

 

[Jelly]

Many (probably nearly all of them) are using trip hammers but that which is a huge dividing line is the gas forge, the traditionalist is using pine charcoal and it makes for a better product giving that the talent and ability is there.

How so? What evidence do you have to suggest that working with pine charcoal produces a better result? What is the mechanism of action for the improvement?

I suspect if I took three knives, the one from the OP, and two of the same design one forged with a gas hearth and power hammer and one made by water-jet cutting Hot-rolled plate.

• functionally they would be indistinguishable,
• The pine-charcoal one might be carburised on the surface giving increased hardness, but the effect wouldn't be uniform enough to be truly meaningful.
• Etching the surface to show microstructure would reveal that both forging methods produced the same effect of flowing the grain in specific directions to increase the stiffness of the workpiece,
• the one cut from plate would exhibit substantively similar characteristics when etched, as long as the cut was aligned with respect to the grain structure produced by rolling.

[Apologies, I'm aware that this devolves into a kind of rant beyond this point]

Blacksmithing, at heart is just a name for small scale forging, which boils down to bashing hot metal to achieve specific properties... As these properties are desirable, they're well studied, and modern methods have been fine tuned over the last 175 years to produce things to exacting standards. It's almost insulting to the industry and the individuals who have been involved with that development and the current practice of forging to suggest that they can't possibly meet the standards of someone using traditional methods.



I have a lot of respect for the skill of this famous Japanese smith, but I doubt that it exceeds that of the skilled smiths of the early Victorian era. His experience and apprenticeship will have taught him approximations of how to achieve results we can now deliver with great accuracy and reliability; and he rightly deserves recognition for his dedication to his craft.

However, with regard to your earlier comment

... top tier of smithing in a country known for quality blacksmithing.

, give where credit is due, Germany and the UK have led the world in forging for well over a century, and on such a phenomenally grand scale that Japan's cottage industry is not of any great note by comparison; the Chinese and Taiwanese (or is it Chinese and Chinese?) have followed hot on their heels, and the US made a pretty important contribution to during the 1910-1970 period too...

 

[Corneel]

Just like you Jelly I am a bit sceptical about some of these theories. Pine charcoal is the best kind of charcoal, it burns hot and leaves very little ash. It also doesn't contain sulphur like black coal, but in reallity that doesn't make a lot of difference to the finished product because the sulphur is being burned out and the little that does get infused into the steel is very superficial. So, a pine char coal furnace makes for a pleasant kind of solid fuel furnace. A gas furnace is a lot more convenient though. When you starve the oxygen a bit you get a similar carbon rich environment as a coal fire. In the end it is all about tradition, what the smith learned to work with, how his workschedule looks like etc.

The quench has a similar mystique surrounding it. The soft mountain water of Miki should impair some special properties to the steel. The quench has always been a mystery until more recent metallurgy started to explain what happens exactly. Middle age descriptions of steel making would tell the smith to collect the water from a special beach, under a full moon and mix it with the urine from a virgin red headed girl etc etc. In reality the quench only needs to cool the steel quickly enough to avoid the formation of pearlite but not too quick to avoid cracking and warping the steel. The only thing relevant to the quenching fluid is its cooling rate, you shouldn't be too surprised when the water of the London sewer system works just as well as the mountain spring water from Miki city.

A big thing in tool making is the grain size. The Japanese white paper steel is great stuff with a very fine grain size. But overheat it a couple of times and you get a biscuit like substance with a grain you can see with your naked eye! It is the skill of the smith that makes the tool, the right forging temperature, not too hot not too cold, working swiftly to avoid unnessary scaling etc. Then comes the heat treatment that could easilly wipe out all skilled forging work if done incorrectly, but when done with care it could decrease the grain size even further.

I think we can admire the skill of the Japanese blacksmiths just as well without mytical hokey pokey. Making a laminated blade from a very simple high carbon steel at very high hardness levels is a quite a feat!

The drop forging method is a lot easier then traditional black smithing! And makes a similar quality of the steel in the end product when done correctly. I watched the Zwilling factory video. They now seem to have quit the drop forging technique and start now from a strip and only heat up the bolster area to forging temperatures. That leaves the sharp end of the knife untouched. So they rely on the quality of the steel as supplied by the steel makers. Of course, heat treatment is quite a science these days, so I suppose they don't make any mistakes in that part either. The Western knife making factories use different kinds of steel compared to the traditional Japanese black smiths. They use various alloys to control the properties of the steel and don't temper the knifes quite so hard. Edge retention comes from the alloys and less from the hardness. In adition, stainless is almost standard these days. A Japanese knife can be honed sharper and has good edge retention through it's hardness but asks for more care in daily use. Just like chisels in fact.

 

[Trafalgar]

So-called "white paper," "blue paper," and other premium steels are produced in the tens of thousands of tons each year and sold by, and used by, huge multinational manufacturing concerns. Modern manufacturers are able to use these top-quality steels and not ruin them. If they weren't able to do this then they wouldn't waste their money buying premium raw materials. The notion that it takes a nonagenarian master Japanese blacksmith to fully exploit the physical properties of these steels is wishful thinking, to put it charitably. There is skill involved but it is wildly embellished and romanticized, and to good marketing effect it appears to me.

As for laminated blades Stanley and Record proved these weren't all that hard to do and in quantity, to boot.