Working hours experiment

[Geoff_S]

The better managers are the ones that have worked their way up through the roles that they are actually managing.

The worst are the ones that go straight into managerial positions because they studied it in college.

I worked my way up through the roles to reach management, and bloody hated it! I enjoyed all of the roles on the way, but having to manage other people was a skill that I never possessed, and never will.

I just enjoyed being hands on and a team player, the problem was that there was an upper limit to what I could earn, so I had to "manage". Yes, I sold my soul to the devil. For some obscure reason, managers are generally paid more than their "subordinates", even though those subordinates are highly skilled and the managers may not be, other than in management.

I did however work for a company where this was not the case. The policy was to pay the going rate for the skill and experience, and not just because you were a manager, although good management is also a skill. Management here was seen more as an administrative role rather than a revenue earning role. The company eventually disappeared in the quagmire of a huge corporate.

Anyway, I'm now retired and the only person I have to manage is myself. That can be tricky :wink:

 

[tomatwark]

Treating your staff well is always a good thing to do.

I always tried to do this with my business and had a very loyal and trust worthy workforce.

In January when it all went wrong, and I had to tell them that they were losing their jobs, they all stayed until the bitter end and finished off the kitchen we were part way through.

If had been a right bas**rd I suspect they would not have done that.

I still work with one of them now and I go for the occasional curry with others.

The firm I work for now have the same way of doing things which makes it a great place to work.

 

[RobinBHM]

My concern would be if your guys do lots of overtime -in which case they may work late on Friday and be paid extra.....

But in general, yes its a great idea.

As I said in the Brexit thread, have a think about combining it with lean construction.......with the productivity gains you might go down to a 4 day week

If I get a mo, I will stick some images in a new thread of a pilot project I did for workshop organisation -it was a simple shadow board before / after using the 5S principle.

 

[rafezetter]

The better managers are the ones that have worked their way up through the roles that they are actually managing.

The worst are the ones that go straight into managerial positions because they studied it in college.

Never a more true statement. The same applies to many high-up jobs such as architects, there are many excellent architects who know exactly what they're talking about and are very experienced (There's one notable example on this forum ). But there are also quite a lot who have got the piece of paper (or none if they call themselves something other than architect) but are absolutely useless, coming up with totally impossible plans which a regular builder could see from a mile away just isn't possible, coming up with something massively over-budget just because they "Thought it looked best" and they end up having to re-design at the customers cost, and generally not understanding how the trades work. A lot of them could do with a couple of years experience on-site, exactly the same how managers could do with a couple of years of doing the job first before running the place.

My mate "Dave the builder" has met quite a few of these, almost without exception he calls them "F[censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored] [censored]holes.

Some of the issues in plans he's had to deal with; like an RSJ sitting on a block pillar on one side and NO PILLAR on the other as it "interferes with the sliding glass doors" he brought home to show me are just priceless, he was like "just what the [censored] [censored] do they think I'm going to [censored] do with the other [censored] [censored] end?" I laughed HARD, it hurt.

 

[dzj]

But there are also quite a lot who have got the piece of paper (or none if they call themselves something other than architect) but are absolutely useless, coming up with totally impossible plans which a regular builder could see from a mile away just isn't possible, coming up with something massively over-budget just because they "Thought it looked best" and they end up having to re-design at the customers cost, and generally not understanding how the trades work..

It's only gotten worse with this 3d rendering software they use.

 

[Deejay]

Good morning Bob

It's good to know that there are still some reasonable employers about.

I think Robin has hit the nail on the head.

Have you considered reducing the number of days worked in the week?

A whole day off every fortnight is, in my opinion, more use than half a day each week. A whole day off each week would be better still.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Bm101]

It's strange that we should regard progression from more traditional work patterns as risky. I always liked how ( I have at least perceived ) some of our more Nordic cousins approaches to work 'on the tools'. Why is building work and so on often seen as a less intelligent career here in the uk? If its seen as a career at all.
Wonder if its a cultural signifier historically?
If in doubt why is acceptable that so many people enjoy flexible working hours now as long as they work in office based type jobs? Ok sure it has to do with the rise of the computer chip. But its odd that rather than transfer these advantages to ourselves as 'working' people we still seem as a culture keen to alienate our own coworkers to some extent. Yeh of course there's pishtakers and leadswingers out there. But for a small and intimate company where the two bosses are both switched on and open to positive change and willing to invest effort to reward in an involved and skilled workforce what is not to enjoy here!?!
Hope this doesn't come over the wrong way in any overtly political manner Thats not my intention. Just an observation.
Bravo Bob.
=D>

 

[Trevanion]

Why is building work and so on often seen as a less intelligent career here in the uk? If its seen as a career at all.
Wonder if its a cultural signifier historically?

I've got quite strong beliefs on the subject that I've talked about on the forum before, trying to keep it non-political...

I think it's seriously regressed in the last half a century or so, It used to be you would have to very intelligent to get a City and Guilds qualification in a trade like joinery because you would actually have to know and show how to do the job properly with your own hands. These days they're practically giving them away, it's mostly fairly simple paperwork now with some practical work with very forgiving tolerances (I'm talking +3mm/-3mm where it really should be +0.5mm/-0.5mm or less tolerance for good joinery work). The trades have sort of become the dumping ground for all the school rejects and misfits, which on one hand is good as it's given some people who were otherwise unemployable stable income (I do work for a general builder who has a massive soft spot for rejects, misfits and broken things, He's had boys that couldn't read or write when they started with him and he's mentored them into skilled tradespeople in his company and has paid for them to do reading and writing classes out of own pocket. All his boys must've been right nuisances in school and elsewhere and if it hadn't been for the apprenticeship scheme I don't doubt a few would've spent time behind bars, All I ever get off the boys is very polite, respectful exchanges and sometimes a bit of rowdy banter like anywhere else . These are the kind of employers that should be getting awards.). On the other hand, it's given the trades a bit of negative sentiment with some people and especially schools in a sort of way like "Why would you want to do that? It's for idiots that can't do anything else" which has possibly veered some people away from even thinking about working in the trades and they've gone off to university, ended up with a pointless degree in a low-demand high-supply area of expertise and over £40,000 in student debts and ended up working in Tescos because there wasn't anyone locally that their degree meant anything to #-o . I think if you've got your head screwed on with some grey matter inside you can do very well in the trades and can be earning just as well as if not more than any other form of employment, bar the elite bankers and the like. For lack of a better phrase, there's plenty of Indians, very few worthy Chiefs that can run it all to it's fullest.

When I left school I had a couple of choices, I could do an apprenticeship at £3.50 an hour or work at Tescos for a more lucrative £7.50 an hour, I know a few people that chose the Tescos route, blew all the paycheck on big-bender weekends all the time, and are still stuck there earning the same money waiting for the next big-bender weekend. At least with the £3.50 an hour I had to learn how to budget, save, and not overspend :lol:. I'll just say I'm not doing too bad now vs the people still at Tesco, not great but not terrible.

 

[Flynnwood]

Not at all. I'm not a slave driver, I really want a happy workforce.
I also do bonuses if we are doing well which creates an incentive.
Look after the good ones is now my motto.

Sorted! Done! Yes.

The last thing you want is high staff turnover / poor productivity / low moral. One company I was a manager for had a "staff stability index". This meant that 80% of staff employed had over 2 years service. (That was pre - 2009 recession though, so that measurement doesn't really apply nowadays as the employment market is so different in 2019.) But still worth mentioning imho.

Just don't get soft on paying overtime.

For many years I managed sales and would often find 80% of sales commission paid to 20% of staff. Those years are gone (in terms of payment structure) but if I had the cause/opportunity to employ someone tomorrow - I would call up the "good ones".

You have landed on a winning formula imho.

 

[doctor Bob]

Very kind thank you.
So far all is going well.
Prior to starting it I had a chat with the fellas, explaining what I was going to do. Just laid down a few suggestions, couple of workers liked to chat a lot, suggested productivity could be maintained by knocking this on the head a bit etc etc.
All the "bits of advice" I talked about have been taken on board and if anything productivity has improved.
I'm also trying to switch a bit of overtime to peace work. Hopefully the result of this will be 2 fold. Stuff will get done at weekends, the chaps will earn great money. Started this weekend with the chaps doing a kitchen over the weekend, the condition is it has to be up to our normal standard. If the guys get it right I reckon they will be on about double time, but result for me as it's a kitchen done and I know what the labour cost is and it's fine for profit.

 

[Flynnwood]

All the "bits of advice" I talked about have been taken on board and if anything productivity has improved.

Keep going on that
The employment market is in such a state that many full time employees are keen to just keep their job. And if that means making small changes to their behavior at work to improve things/productivity for their employer; they will.

Just last week, I was talking to a 60 year old builder who said that some labourers from the EU will work in the UK for £20 a day!

That surprised me, but I had no doubt to question his honesty during the conversation.

 

[Deadeye]

Interesting experiment ... and interesting thread.
My tuppence is that whilst I think it will probably work ok for Doctor Bob and his employees, that kind of business is not where the issue lies.
Employers where there's a clear task that can be "finished", and where there's a very clear boss deciding on what the output is and how long it should take, can do this already - as Bob is demonstrating - and at relatively low risk (since they can revert).
The (really very substantial) problem is applying this to circumstances where one or other of those two things aren't the case, and especially in the public sector.
Take the NHS (which I know the workings of very well). It employs over a million people, and the majority of htose are roles where if person A doesn't do the work, then another person needs to - i.e. cutting the workign week simply makes a chronic staffing shortage of doctors, nurses, paras, physios, (etc. etc.) more acute.
Add to that that the public sector already has a really bad clock-watch culture in many places, and really poor was of assessing "productivity" and the concept becomes a bit of a disaster. Ditto many other services.
So, I'm not a fan as a global mandate, but businesses where it could/does work are free to structure their work as they see fit without the need for legislation.

 

[Rich C]

Interesting report.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-5-hour ... 1571876563

 

[Jacob]

All the "bits of advice" I talked about have been taken on board and if anything productivity has improved.

Keep going on that
The employment market is in such a state that many full time employees are keen to just keep their job. And if that means making small changes to their behavior at work to improve things/productivity for their employer; they will.

Just last week, I was talking to a 60 year old builder who said that some labourers from the EU will work in the UK for £20 a day!

Some labourers from the UK do the same - particularly in the zero hours contract area and a whole rake of insecure jobs available nowadays. We all do what we have to. Nobody chooses low pay - I blame the employer and/or the lack of union or state control of working conditions

That surprised me, but I had no doubt to question his honesty during the conversation.

These tales always seem to be 2nd hand though, it has to be said.

 

[doctor Bob]

All the "bits of advice" I talked about have been taken on board and if anything productivity has improved.

Keep going on that
The employment market is in such a state that many full time employees are keen to just keep their job. And if that means making small changes to their behavior at work to improve things/productivity for their employer; they will.

Just last week, I was talking to a 60 year old builder who said that some labourers from the EU will work in the UK for £20 a day!

Some labourers from the UK do the same - particularly in the zero hours contract area and a whole rake of insecure jobs available nowadays. We all do what we have to. Nobody chooses low pay - I blame the employer and/or the lack of union or state control of working conditions

That surprised me, but I had no doubt to question his honesty during the conversation.

These tales always seem to be 2nd hand though, it has to be said.

It's interesting Jacob that this thread has been running for over a month, yet even though it's a subject close to your heart (workers rights and conditions) you have not posted once on the subject. Then today you post about poor employers, lack of unions and working conditions without any reference to the topic of the thread. Please don't turn this thread into a left wing workers rights thread, theres another one running for your party political broadcasts.

 

[Trevanion]

It's interesting Jacob that this thread has been running for over a month, yet even though it's a subject close to your heart (workers rights and conditions) you have not posted once on the subject. Then today you post about poor employers, lack of unions and working conditions without any reference to the topic of the thread. Please don't turn this thread into a left wing workers rights thread, theres another one running for your party political broadcasts.

Jacob seems like he's getting bored of the BBC thread as it seems he's posting more and more often in the rest of the forum. Getting back into the swing of things with the recent sharpening threads, all we need now is a double vs single glazing thread and he'll be well alight! :lol:

 

[doctor Bob]

Christmas do, sorted. We're off clay pidgeon shooting, tuition and a mini 50 shot competition for 7 of us. With a trophy.
Meal and a few beers after.

 

[sunnybob]

3 rules of using a shotgun;
1 Dont shoot the instructor.
2 Dont walk ANYWHERE with the shotgun closed.
3 read rule 1 again.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

have fun, but heres a hint for the boss...
DO NOT shoot AT the clay. It wont be there when the shot arrives. If its side ways, aim 6 foot in front. If its going away, aim over its head, because the shot pattern will be 6 ft across and you want the thing to fly into your shot, not have your shot chase it all over the sky.. =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
8) 8) 8) 8)

 

[doctor Bob]

Well that's that experiment f***ed up!!!!!

Back to the drawing board.
I'm hoping that I can have them all back after the lockdown and we will have to review the situation.

 

[Droogs]

Do youfeel it was starting to work Bob?