Woodworkers squares - why?

[thomvic]

It is often said that the only accurate try squares are engineers squares. If that is so then why do they make and sell carpenters squares?

Richard

 

[AndyT]

Because they are accurate enough!

I'm all for trying to do nice neat work, but a lot of the time in woodworking, what would show as errors in engineering work can be cancelled out, or hidden during assembly or exceeded by natural movement of the material.

Don't forget that once you've marked a super-accurate line, you have to be able to cut to it.

 

[Racers]

Hi,

Measure it with a micrometer mark it with chalk and cut it with an axe, has all ways been my mantra. :wink:

I like the brass ahd hardwood, they are good enough and can be filed square.

Pete

 

[studders]

cut it with an axe,

Pete

Surely that's only really necessary when making Fine Furniture? Me, I just score it deep and stomp on it.

 

[Peter Sefton]

I always suggest that my students buy engineers squares, some carpenters try squares do stay square but not many in my experience, and don’t assume that just because it is an engineer’s square that it will be accurate
I find Fisher and Moore & Wright Engineers Squares very reliable. Available in workshop grade 'B' or inspection grade 'A'.

 

[bugbear]

I always suggest that my students buy engineers squares, some carpenters try squares do stay square but not many in my experience, and don’t assume that just because it is an engineer’s square that it will be accurate
I find Fisher and Moore & Wright Engineers Squares very reliable. Available in workshop grade 'B' or inspection grade 'A'.

Moore and Wright are available in 'AA' for those with deep pockets

Warning - any woodworker thinking more accurate = better might want to check out the full implications of 'AA'. They're quite entertaining, and deliciously counter intuitive to everyday experience.

BugBear

 

[jimi43]

I must see an engineer's square at every bootfair I go to and none have been more than a tenner. The MW ref I got was a tad more...but hell...you only live once!

I don't actually use it as a working square...just as a reference square against which all my other squares are checked.

Mind you...for most woodworking, I agree with the other comments here..a nice brass, steel and ebony infill square is a pleasure to behold.

Jim

 

[Peter Sefton]

Thanks BugBear I will stick with A and B, AA just seems a little OTT although I am an accuracy addict. I will keep my Rosewood and brass for high days and holidays.

 

[LuptonM]

Well maybe that engineering squares are closer to 90 degrees than woodworking squares- the cheap ones are out by a comical amount and aren't even good enough for paper weights


(I am back BTW- exams finished yey!!!!!!!!!!!!)

 

[thomvic]

Thanks Gents - I've got it sorted now.
Engineers squares are for using and woodworkers squares are for looking at in admiration.

Richard

 

[dunbarhamlin]

It is possible to have it all:

Less of a must-have than Chris' sliding bevels, but the tab is a real boon.
And no need for a nice calendar or a good view out of the window.
Would be a little disappointing if they went for a walk though - might have to sell the second wife to replace :shock:

 

[jimi43]

It is possible to have it all:

Less of a must-have than Chris' sliding bevels, but the tab is a real boon.
And no need for a nice calendar or a good view out of the window.
Would be a little disappointing if they went for a walk though - might have to sell the second wife to replace :shock:

Right...that's it...I'm not coming here anymore... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :wink:

Just when you think you have mastered the slopes and there ain't no more to try.....

Blast....dagnabbbit.....blast.... #-o

Jim

 

[Benchwayze]

I have an Engineers' Combo-square and a straightedge. I use them as a 'datum' in the shop. The fact that I don't always produce work that is up to the scrutiny of these tools, is neither here nor there. I plumped for Starrett and I do my best to justify having and using them.

I also use the stock of the square for setting my saw blades, both when using and when setting up.
It's a good idea to have two. If two different references show something to be 'square', then that's square! Any two squares are highly unlikely to be 'out' by exactly the same amount. That is usually close enough for woodwork.

Agreed?


John

 

[Benchwayze]

Well maybe that engineering squares are closer to 90 degrees than woodworking squares- the cheap ones are out by a comical amount and aren't even good enough for paper weights


(I am back BTW- exams finished yey!!!!!!!!!!!!)

=D> =D> =D>
Did you pass?

John

 

[RogerP]

If two different references show something to be 'square', then that's square! Any two squares are highly unlikely to be 'out' by exactly the same amount. That is usually close enough for woodwork.

Agreed!

 

[bosshogg]

I posted this earlier in another thread -

>To use a square to check a square appears to be a bit negative in terms of accuracy, if you reverse the stock of a square to a line drawn from a straight edge, any misalignment is visible, and the first straight edges were created by man's eye alone, as there are few, if not any, straight edges in nature<

I am an engineer in wood - A PATTERNMAKER - all my squares and steel rules are engineers tools, but for the life of me I can't see any advantages in bypassing experience and skill with the quest for buying an abundance of expensive tools.
Learning the way things used to be done, gives one an understanding of the "why" all the drudgery of hard graft gives one the reason for things like power tools, gaining the experience and skills gives one the eye for precise beauty. Putting all of these together makes one a craftsman...bosshogg :wink:

I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn. A.E. 8)

 

[jimi43]

...... for the life of me I can't see any advantages in bypassing experience and skill with the quest for buying an abundance of expensive tools.

Learning the way things used to be done, gives one an understanding of the "why" all the drudgery of hard graft gives one the reason for things like power tools, gaining the experience and skills gives one the eye for precise beauty. Putting all of these together makes one a craftsman...

Why are "the gaining of experience and skill" and "buying an abundance of expensive tools" mutually exclusive or did I read you wrongly BH?

I find the acquisition of beautiful and accurate tools a pleasure in its own right. I don't give a monkey's toss if I can use the tool when I buy it...I sometimes just look at it, I always research its origins and that of the company who made it, and I invariably end up learning how to use it and it becomes part of my arsenal of tools.

Case in point....I bought a Starrett height gauge for future use in my business venture and then used it today on my table saw to finally get accurate depths of cut for a housing joint that I was making.

Woodworking is one skill where the quality of the tool that you use usually impacts on the quality of the work produced for a person of the required skill to use it but....quality does not necessarily mean expensive...that height gauge cost me £12 on FleaBay....because people want digital now (Lord knows why)....so they are cheap.

Yes...there is a lot of snobbery in woodworking...particularly in the hobbyist sector...and a misguided belief that a Lie Nielsen or Norris will make you plane better.... Of course it will...but only if you know how to use one in the first place!

Jim

 

[bosshogg]

How do you mean "mutually exclusive"...bosshogg

 

[jimi43]

How do you mean "mutually exclusive"...bosshogg

Either/Or

 

[Jacob]

It is often said that the only accurate try squares are engineers squares. If that is so then why do they make and sell carpenters squares?

Richard

IMHO it's because a wood handle with rounded edges will do less damage if dropped onto your workpiece - and, if properly balanced (many are not) will sit on the workpiece unaided, without tilting and falling off, which is a trivial detail but quite useful if you are doing a mass mark-up with the usual occasional interruptions.
In fact the the only tool I can think of, of which the often used tooly word "balance" has any meaning.