Window Making

[ByronBlack]

I'm going to embark on a project to make some windows soon for the workshop. They are going to be double glazed in redwood timber frame.

Thats as far as i've got in the planning stage. What i'm after is some links/resources to things that I should know ahead of time, for instance: What size beading and which profile? What thickness of glass, links to furniture (handles, latches, hinges, sliders etc...)

And also practical things, like what are the standard fixing proceadures? Do I have to consider ventilation etc..

I want to make a good job of these so I thought I would poke the brains of some you lot, JFC and Jacob came to mind, but I'm happy for all and any snippets of info and advice.

 

[Modernist]

If you fancy a challenge have a look at my German Tilt and Turn windows on the projects section

 

[Anonymous]

For a woodwork shop single glazing can be really valuable. The energy cost saving of DG is usually neglible in any case.
With single glazing suitably designed so that condensation can drain off at the bottom and out to the outside, you have a highly efficient de-humidifier with zero running cost. The larger the area the better within reason.
The simplest way to do it is to do normal glazing but without putty along the bottom edge. Perhaps a bevel on the bottom rebate to drain off water and plastic spacers to hold the glass edge off the woodwork.
Also essential are burglar proof top-lights which you can safely leave open when necessary.
4mm float for most things. Or laminated if break-ins are likely

cheers
Jacob

 

[Woody Alan]

Mr grimsdale

The energy cost saving of DG is usually neglible in any case.

I have seen you quote this and similar many times, and I have no doubt in some way you are correct. I really cannot subscribe to this single glazing thing at all. I have two buildings built the same, the first I built with single glazing and the second I built with double glazing bought from mismeasured supplier very cheaply. The building with the double glazing is warm and quiet and has absolutely no condensation. I know which I would prefer.
You cannot try to put a price equating two different products and their two different purposes and intentions, the only similarity being they both let light in. There I've said it and will probably regret it

Cheers Alan

 

[Shultzy]

Byron, If i remember correctly you have 4x2 framing on your workshop. Instead of having DG made you could use 2 panes of glass, one at front and one in rear, with a large air gap which is good for sound insulation as well as heat. If you glue and pin a moulding at the outside edge you can fit the panes from the inside, good for security.

For ventilation you could use these, made for Upvc windows but I'm sure they could be fixed on your workshop

http://www.handlestore.com/trickle-vent.php?cat_id=1
http://www.handlestore.com/trickle-vent.php?cat_id=3

 

[ByronBlack]

Hi Shultzy, you've hit the nail on the head - thats exactly what I was going to do, one of the things that I'm not sure of at the moment is, how wide/big should I make the moulding? I was thinking maybe 15mm square with an ovolo profile - does that sound about right?

 

[Anonymous]

Mr grimsdale

The energy cost saving of DG is usually neglible in any case.

I have seen you quote this and similar many times, and I have no doubt in some way you are correct. I really cannot subscribe to this single glazing thing at all. I have two buildings built the same, the first I built with single glazing and the second I built with double glazing bought from mismeasured supplier very cheaply. The building with the double glazing is warm and quiet and has absolutely no condensation. I know which I would prefer.
You cannot try to put a price equating two different products and their two different purposes and intentions, the only similarity being they both let light in. There I've said it and will probably regret it

Cheers Alan

Yeah OK if you get DG cheap thats different. Except for the obsolescence - it all fails in from 5 to 20 years.
As for cost benefits at normal prices; I get challenged, although I'm certainly not alone on this one. I usually say "go away and do the calculations and prove/disprove this for yourself". A lot of people have come to the same conclusion as me.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Anonymous]

Byron, If i remember correctly you have 4x2 framing on your workshop. Instead of having DG made you could use 2 panes of glass, one at front and one in rear, with a large air gap which is good for sound insulation as well as heat. If you glue and pin a moulding at the outside edge you can fit the panes from the inside, good for security.

For ventilation you could use these, made for Upvc windows but I'm sure they could be fixed on your workshop

http://www.handlestore.com/trickle-vent.php?cat_id=1
http://www.handlestore.com/trickle-vent.php?cat_id=3

You'd need access to the gap for cleaning or it will slowly mist over with condensation, mould growth etc. Secondary glazing in fact.

cheers
Jacob

 

[Shultzy]

Byron, 15-18mm seems about right, but I would go with just a 45deg chamfer. This is to make sure that there is no where for the water to lay. Don't forget to provide a window sill with a drip groove. If you use glass just screw the internal beads to allow easy replacement if the glass gets broken.

You could put board over the windows for added security as I mentioned in your workshop post.

 

[JFC]

Hi BB If you don't already have the holes cut for the windows why not go to a upvc company and ask about their mismakes . I got 3 windows for my mates loft conversion for £250 . On the other hand if you want to make them double glazing would help in keeping the noise down for your neighbors . The smallest size DG is 464 so 14mm , i normally leave 9mm for a beading on the inside and mould a chamfer on the outside to look like the putty .
If i where to make them i would buy 5x2 PAR (6x2 may be cheaper as its a more common size) and rip it down to 4x2 for the frame , the 1x2 left is your stop bead , cut plane and mould it to the size you need . 2x2 PAR for the window , Cut out the rebate on a table saw and the offcut is your beading for the glass . Clean the rebate up on the router table or SM and mould the timber to what ever shape you want . Mortice and tenon together .........

 

[ByronBlack]

Jason, thats some good directions - I almost understand it all.

I'm a bit confused though what the 'stop bead' is. Is that the bit that goes on the inside or the outside? Also, what gap between the panes should I have?

 

[RogerS]

Yeah OK if you get DG cheap thats different. Except for the obsolescence - it all fails in from 5 to 20 years.
Jacob

But surely if you are making up your own frames from wood then the incremental cost of the DG units is marginal?

 

[billybuntus]

If all you need is the DG units (as you'll be making the frames yourself) then why not just buy them? They are very very cheap (A friend of mine who does Stained glass for a living recently bought a large bay windows worth of DG glass and had the stained glass panels sandwiched in between for less than £100).

 

[Woody Alan]

I must just add a couple of things here, firstly my house was built in 1964 and probably was one of the first to have sealed units installed in softwood frames. I replaced theses in 2006 42 years later and 90 percent were original (I broke one 10 years ago with a hot air gun don't ask) this disproves the "it all fails in 5-20 years" . Now don't for one ninute think I am not a realist, because I had a bungalow and fitted DG and the units failed in 5 years. My dad built a house and they failed in less than 10 years.
So what's going on? When I looked into it, it's all to do with this silicone that's currently used, it's only suitable for plastic windows where the sealed unit is not in contact with it's surroundings, if you want a unit to put in wood it needs to be made with a resin based sealant ( I do not know what it's called) I discovered it when I broke a unit with the heat gun. So do your research to avoid mismatch of materials.

Hope that helps

Alan

 

[JFC]

The stop bead is the bead the windows shut onto so yes inside . DG units don't work by just making a gap between two pieces of glass , a DG unit has its surround filled with a material that stops the moisture condensating the inside of the unit .
Mr G is correct in what he says about DG yet we now have to install it in our homes as part of building control :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

I must just add a couple of things here, firstly my house was built in 1964 and probably was one of the first to have sealed units installed in softwood frames. I replaced theses in 2006 42 years later and 90 percent were original (I broke one 10 years ago with a hot air gun don't ask) this disproves the "it all fails in 5-20 years" . Now don't for one ninute think I am not a realist, because I had a bungalow and fitted DG and the units failed in 5 years. My dad built a house and they failed in less than 10 years.
So what's going on?

The old ones might have been Pilkington Insulight units which were made in one piece with glass only - imagine a flattened bubble. Is that what you had? You would recognise them from the rounded glass edge - no spacers or sealants.
They would last for ever but were very expensive and have not been made for a long time AFAIK. It's the later ones which fail.

cheers
Jacob[/quote]

 

[Woody Alan]

Alan said

if you want a unit to put in wood it needs to be made with a resin based sealant ( I do not know what it's called) I discovered it when I broke a unit with the heat gun. So do your research to avoid mismatch of materials.

No it's as I said above, a resin based sealant, or at least that's what I was told but a small glazier (business not him) asked me the intended purpose/situation of the unit which is how he went on to explain " Ahhh ewe be wantin the resin then bhoy" or however us yokels speak in Norfolk. I seem to have lost the knack and find myself in no mans land sadly.

Alan

 

[ByronBlack]

Jason, I don't suppose you have a picture or a diagram of a standard wooden DG window that you could post so I could get my head round the various components needed do you? I'm still finding it difficult to fully understand how a unit is constructed in terms of what components go where.

 

[Shultzy]

Byron, here's a quick sketch on the DG window. It's a x-section based on
your 4x2 framing. It seems the easiest construction, you could just butt joint or m&t as you desire.

 

[ByronBlack]

Shutzy - thanks a lot for that, that makes perfect sense now, I was hoping it was that simple but as usual in my mind everything seems a bit more complicated!