Why spend more?

[davegw]

In another thread

...I can see that a £200 LN plane will outperform (and be better value than) a £20 Anant...

and it got me thinking,

will it? really? and by a factor of 10? surely much of the ability of a tool is down to the way it's being set up or used? I'm sure I could do as bad a job with a LN plane with a blunt, badly set, plane as I could with a B&Q special in the same state? does it then follow that I could do as good a job if the planes were both well set up?

If the adage "only a bad worker blames his tools" is correct then are all proponents of high quality tools like LN bad workers? (please please please don't shoot me) :lol: :lol:

 

[tnimble]

It all depends on the work you do with them and on what wood.

If you use the chisels to cut a mortise or a door hinge there is little to no added value to a LN chisel (or BS etc) over a cheap chisel (that holds its edge well enough). If you use the chisels to make tiny dovetails on a jewellery box is added value of a LN chisel is astronomical.

Like wise for planes. Any plane with a well sharpend blade does the job when planing a piece of pine or spruce to size when building somekind of construction. The added value of an expensive plane or the time invested into a cheaper plane that is fully flat and holds the blade without vibration is huge when finish planing a prune to tearout figured exotic.

Thats why I'm willing to spent a lot on a set of tools from Dave (Blue Spruce). I also have cheap ones, but If they don't fit into the corners I can't use them, the joint can't be completeted, and the workpiece is never finished.

I could grind down the sides of a cheap chisel and carefully flatten the back. I would have spent a lot of time and end up with a very springy chisel because the thickness in the middle was already thin to begin with, the chisel needed the thick sides, it was designed that way. If I have to spend lots I better spent it on something I also like very much even if that would mean spending just a little more.

 

[Pete W]

does it then follow that I could do as good a job if the planes were both well set up?

Maybe, but there's the rub. Can you set up the Anant to be as good as a well-set LN (or any other quality plane)? There are a few people who have reported getting a good Anant or other budget tool. The problem seems to be that quality control is all over the map, so you can't count on getting a good one.

So you have to factor in the possibility of spending some hours flattening a sole, or grinding a frog to well-fettled status, or fixing a badly-fitting chipbreaker. You'll probably want to invest in a better blade, too. And after all that, some people have reported that they couldn't fettle an Anant at all, no matter how much time they invested.

All that said, there are plenty of woodworkers producing high-quality work with tools that aren't high-quality.

As a wise man once said, you pays your money and takes your choice

 

[MrJay]

I've always inferred from the adage that only bad workers blame their tools that part of being a 'good worker' is choosing good quality tools in the first place; along with looking after them and learning how and when to use them.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

A case of Laski would get me drunk - if I could get it down.
But a case of Reisling collected in person from the vineyards of Baden Baden will also give me pleasure. (No, I know Laski is a different grape.)

Similarly, a cheap set of chisels will get the job done - but Mr Jeske's are a pleasure to look at and to hold - and get the job done.
Depends on time and budgetary contraints as well as on your priorities - the end product or the doing.

Some tools of course are not fit for purpose, be it because of poor design, materials or production. Gauges that slip, chisels that can't take an edge, planes distorted beyond fettling.

Were I foolish enough to partake, meths would get me drunk. Blind drunk.

 

[woodbloke]

I've never owned any of these Anant tools but have seen and handled plenty in my local tool emporium (Penny Farthing Tools) in town. My impression is that they're nasty, crude lumps and would need a lot of work to set up correctly. On the other hand, for roughly the same price of a new Anant plane I could buy a much better second hand Record or Stanley tool which with a minimum of fettling would probably be much better to use - Rob

 

[bugbear]

My impression is that they're nasty, crude lumps and would need a lot of work to set up correctly.

Fettling can improve fit and finish. But it won't fix too-thin (hence weak or flexible) parts, too small parts (you can't file 'em bigger!) or poor material quality (not much you can do with a low carbon steel blade).

BugBear

 

[ike]

Why spend more?

The short answer...because you can.

Any tool is only as good as the particular squidgy bit it is attached to!

Although quality, well-designed tools are less likely to become a limiting factor in the quality of work achieved, irrespective of ones needs/ability/dexterity.

As already said, you pays yer money....

 

[Philly]

Dave
When I started out in woodworking I couldn't believe companies were asking such huge prices for their tools. And I could never understand the appeal of L-N tools. Until I bought my first...... :wink:
Now, a few years and many, many pound notes later (and especially since I became a toolmaker myself) I can't understand how L-N charge so LITTLE for their tools - I'm sure they barely make a profit on many items.
Work out how many hours of fettling a tool will need, plus the cost of a decent blade, and premium tools from L-N, Veritas, Clifton and a host of smaller makers seem pretty cheap in comparison.
Only my two p worth,
Philly

 

[Aled Dafis]

Philly

HEAR HEAR!!!

Not that I'm a tool maker, but I have a background in engineering, and totally agree that LN/Veritas/Clifton etc. tools offer fantastic value for money.

There is a massive difference between good value tools and cheap tools. Cheap tools don't usually fulfill the task they were designed for, whereas good value tools usually cost quite a bit more, but actually do the job!!

Aled

 

[Smudger]

Yup. Philly is right. He must get sick of hearing that...
Or not. I wouldn't.

I didn't believe it at first, fettled (or feckled) a load of old iron. Then I bought a LN. Fireworks, scales falling from eyes, celestial choirs, the whole thing. Now on slope squared...

 

[Mr Ed]

I have had the quality tools epiphany that others are describing. Having struggled with cheap rubbish, when you can finally afford the likes of a LN plane the difference is immeasurable.

I think the 'bad workman blames his tools' thing is a bit of a nonsense - in many cases it probably is poor tools that is the problem. I know looking back at jobs I used to struggle with, which I now do with ease with good tools, that it was the tools and not me. I'm not sure you can really judge a craftsman until he has tools that actually work in his hands.

For me there is also great pleasure in working with beautiful tools, even where I could make do with cheap stuff. I do this for a hobby to get pleasure out of it, so whilst my Blue Spruce Paring Chisels were totally 'unecessary' I get pleasure from owning and using them (and as it happens they work exceptionally well).

Now OK, not everyone can afford the expensive stuff but that doesn't mean its not better. 13 years ago I used to drive about in a D reg Nova, but now I can afford it I have an nice new Audi. The point being that while I was driving the Nova I never questioned the point of more expensive cars - I knew they would be better but that I just couldn't afford them. I'm sure some puritans would carry on driving the Nova as it gets them from A to B, but most people would want to access the improved performance and pleasurability of the Audi. Slightly contrived car analogy I know, but I don't see why tools would be any different.

Cheers, Ed.

 

[big soft moose]

i suspect that the bad workman blames his tools adage came into being before cheap chaiwaean rubbish was readily available, In the olden days every craftsman would have had decent kit and thus if the tools werent up to it it would be down to his poor maintenance or sloppy tool usage.

mind you even today a good craftsman can probably get better results with a korelipino piece of tat than a poor one gets with even the most expensive tool.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Ed and Moose

I think the bad workman/tools/blame thing is self serving - as the uninformed worker, even with a herd of LN/Clico/BS/Barr etc will inevitably have a cupboard full of expensive junk - without the knowledge to maintain them, he may as well have scrap iron with rubber blades.
When offering advice to an ab initio, I don't think enough weight can be given to stumping up for a course, or finding a good mentor.

Had I been given (or, perhaps, heeded - can't remember) such advice, I'd probably have a goodly selection of old tools, with a select few modern makers' items (instead of the other way around) and have been up and running, acquiring skills, quicker and cheaper than I did.
On the other hand, I may not now appreciate the pleasure of using a Cullen gauge nor have experienced the joy of using a set of Wenzloff teeth - swings and roundabouts.

And now I'm toying with booking myself on one of Master Charlesworth's courses to push myself that bit further up the scale. I'm in a teeny pond with one tadpole - time to dip a fin in a big lake.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Paul Chapman]

I think another aspect of planes, in addition to how 'good' the plane is, concerns how it's set up. If you work primarily with hand tools, you need your planes to perform a variety of quite different functions - from scrubbing to flattening, to smoothing to scraping. So when the uninitiated ask, "Which plane is best", part of the answer should concern what it is to be used for.

After years of reading, trial and error, experimentation and comparing my methods with others, I now have a range of planes all set up quite differently and which can be selected for the particular task in hand. The process of finding this out has been, at times, frustrating but well worth it and I can now say that I really enjoy my planing because my planes do what I want them to do.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bugbear]

Work out how many hours of fettling a tool will need, plus the cost of a decent blade, and premium tools from L-N, Veritas, Clifton and a host of smaller makers seem pretty cheap in comparison.

That rather depends wether you count time spent fettling as a painful chore or a rewarding pleasure

I seem to recall some guy on this forum spending AGES messing around with beech and ground stock when you can buy perfectly good wooden planes quite cheaply... now who *was* that?!

BugBear

 

[woodbloke]

For me there is also great pleasure in working with beautiful tools, even where I could make do with cheap stuff. I do this for a hobby to get pleasure out of it, so whilst my Blue Spruce Paring Chisels were totally 'unecessary' I get pleasure from owning and using them (and as it happens they work exceptionally well).

Ed.

As Ed rightly says, owning these sorts of tools gives pleasure in itself. BS tools are a great example as they are fabulous to look and and hold. The extra bonus, of course, that they work reasonably well too but I think that they play tricks with the mind in that they also encourage you to do better quality work than you might otherwise do with tools ordinaire. Very strange.

Smudge- did the 'earth move' as well :lol: :lol: :lol: - Rob

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

If you don't like spending more, then avert your eyes!

I had a great time at the recent Perth Wood Show. I came away with a bunch of goodies. The question is whether any of these being absolutely necessary is clearly an unnecessary one ...

A mitre square from Colen Clenton (he swapped for one of my marking knife/scratch awl sets!) ..

A Boggs spokeshave (gift from LN Australia for demonstrating on their stand during the show .. I should have paid them for the opportunity to play with their toys .. tools) ...

..and a sliding bevel from Chris Vesper. Just fantastic! (This one I paid for)

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Smudger]

Smudge- did the 'earth move' as well :lol: :lol: :lol: - Rob

I think it did!

 

[Philly]

I seem to recall some guy on this forum spending AGES messing around with beech and ground stock when you can buy perfectly good wooden planes quite cheaply... now who *was* that?!

BugBear

Ahh.....ummmmm...... :wink:
Philly