When is hand made not hand made?

[dunbarhamlin]

My 2cents...

A hand made mortise and a mortiser made mortise are 2 different thing imho.

But if you were shown shown two, glued up and finished blind joints; one made by 'hand' and the other by a morticer, could you tell the difference?

And, provided they are both well made, would one be stronger than the other?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

That I think is the point - describing the machine made item as hand made is dishonest, as the customer may well have made their choice in the belief that their patronage was preserving old styles of craftsmanship.
It is charging the customer for something whichy was not done. Just the same as charging for six coats of paint and only doing five.

 

[Paul Chapman]

as soon as a machine of some sort is used the chance of failure ie 'the workmanship of certainty' is reduced.

Except when it's a biscuit jointer and you cut the slots in the wrong place :lol: Sorry, Rob, couldn't resist - but don't worry I won't tell anyone :wink: :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[studur]

@Benchwayze about hidden joints

I would probably not see the difference. It was just a not so good example to give. But hand made vs router made dovetails would be more obvious. Especially if you spend the little effort to put the little touch to show off the signs of the hand made ones (like different sizes of dovetails on the same side).

 

[promhandicam]

That I think is the point - describing the machine made item as hand made is dishonest, . . . . snip.

Then there are a lot of dishonest professional cabinet makers around. I've just had a look at a few websites and many use the term hand made as well as custom made and bespoke - and many go so far as to say that dovetails or finishing are done by hand but I doubt very much that any professional cabinet maker of whatever calibre would produce furniture from rough sawn timber without using any powered tools or machinery. If there are, then they either have customers with very deep pockets or they don't plan on staying in business for long. To take just one example, John Lloyd sells Lamello biscuit jointers in his tool shop. In the introduction to the shop it says "If we stock it, we would use it in our workshops, and if you need advice on what to buy, whether you are a complete beginner or a professional, we will be able to assist you."

Steve

 

[studur]

Then probably hand made furnitures are not a viable option for business. There is no shame in saying that a commercial workshop uses power tools to make furniture but they must abstain from applying the term hand-made. I would keep the lumber preparation out of the equation since on can buy furniture-ready lumbers and do a hand-made cabinet. In my opinion, I would consider a cabinet hand-made if it would have been made using hand tools even if the cabinetmaker would have bought the lumbers already planed and jointed.

I would also say that the hand made label is only a matter of craftsmanship recognition from peers. It has no real monetary value if the end product is the exact same as one produced with help of power tools. I would not pay the double price because the craftsman decided to spend 5-10 hours to plane his table top with a hand plane instead of power tools. But I would be impressed by the end result. But in the end, the table is the same for the customer. Hand made is more or less a matter of personal satisfaction or recognition from peers.

with this other 2 cents, i am close to a dollar now

 

[tnimble]

Hence the reason that as soon as objects are made on a CNC tool, the rate of failure in the finished product (once the initial set-up has been done) ought to be zero

Which is totally untrue, ever used a CNC machine or seen one up close while it was used? After initial setup one cannot throw some piece of wood or metal towards the machine to be fetched by mechanical arms that grab and position te work. For most machines that can be CNCed the hand operated machine has less 'workmanship risk' but the 1 pass movemens that can be made are more limited in complexity and more aditional tooling is required.

A CNC machine requires lots of setup per part and still many tool changes in between each again with setup. Only an automated production line has little risk once initially setup.

 

[Mr Ed]

4 pages in and no-one has even mentioned William Morris or Ned Ludd yet!

Ed

 

[woodbloke]

Hence the reason that as soon as objects are made on a CNC tool, the rate of failure in the finished product (once the initial set-up has been done) ought to be zero

Which is totally untrue, ever used a CNC machine or seen one up close while it was used? After initial setup one cannot throw some piece of wood or metal towards the machine to be fetched by mechanical arms that grab and position te work. For most machines that can be CNCed the hand operated machine has less 'workmanship risk' but the 1 pass movemens that can be made are more limited in complexity and more aditional tooling is required.

A CNC machine requires lots of setup per part and still many tool changes in between each again with setup. Only an automated production line has little risk once initially setup.

I bow to your superior knowledge and very 'umbly stand corrected, tugging forelock :wink: ... and as to having used a CNC machine the answer is yes, albeit many years ago in a very limited capacity. Perhaps what I meant was as you suggest, an automated line of some description.
The point I wished to make was that with the greater use of sophisticated, accurate (and I foolishly picked CNC machinery as it had been mentioned in the thread before :roll: ) machinery the less chance of product failure due the 'workmanship of certainty' - Rob

 

[dunbarhamlin]

See my tagline.
[edit]Oops - that's in Another Place - "Lutherie with Luddite Tendencies"
[/edit]

To backtrack a little, I don't think most cabinet makers using the phrase are being dishonest. That would only be the case if they knowingly misled their clientelle. Most will be misusing it as a simple marketing phrase, without due consideration of what it implies to the potential customer.
I'm sure luddite manufacture would be entirely impractical in the modern age (as evidenced by changes common in commercial Amish shops)

 

[woodbloke]

as soon as a machine of some sort is used the chance of failure ie 'the workmanship of certainty' is reduced.

Except when it's a biscuit jointer and you cut the slots in the wrong place :lol: Sorry, Rob, couldn't resist - but don't worry I won't tell anyone :wink: :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

...except I told Michael Huntley and he's seen the evidence - Rob

 

[Benchwayze]

For studorosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject:

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@Benchwayze about hidden joints

I would probably not see the difference. It was just a not so good example to give. But hand made vs router made dovetails would be more obvious. Especially if you spend the little effort to put the little touch to show off the signs of the hand made ones (like different sizes of dovetails on the same side).
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Not for one minute did I suggest that I would counsel a 'fraud'.

I just wanted to point out that looking at a finished M&T, it would be near impossible to tell the difference between hand-tooled and machine-tooled.
I know there are those who might misrepresent machine made joints, but I ain't one of them.

If I wished, I could hand-tool a dovetail that looked identical to one cut with a Leigh jig. But what's the point, when the 'Holy Grail' would be to get the Leigh to do it the other way around!

:lol:

 

[promhandicam]

In all the heated debate no one has had the good manners - myself included - to welcome studur to this particular madhouse . . . . so welcome!

Steve

 

[studur]

thank you for the welcome words

I'm just a beginner so my words do not worth sh** But I like this debate since I tossed my power tools aside to get to the real things, chisels, gouges, saws and scrapers. I must say I love it. The wood curls and shavings, the quietness of hand tools versus power tools. It feels like being a born-again craftsman who tries (hardly) to recreate my ancestor's hobby.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Welcome studur.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Mr T]

Hi

I think handmade has something to do with the relationship of the operater to the tool. The workmanship of risk has been mentioned a few times, this is about the workers control of the tool and his effect on the outcome. Even when using a machine it is easy to cock things up (in fact the cock ups are usually bigger when machines are used). I would suggest that using a hand held router is equivalent to using a hand plane, in use you are monitoring the progress of the machine and making minor adjustments accordingly. You are controlling the operation at a risk to the outcome.

The risk to the outcome varies with different machines depending on the amount of operator control. A thicknesser has little operator control while a biscuit jointer has a high level of control.

Chris

 

[Benchwayze]

Welcome Studur.
My apologies. I didn't notice you had made so few posts. A belated welcome to this merry-go-round.

And Promhandicam,
I saw your signature yesterday somewhere, and I know it wasn't on this forum, because I wrote it down, for reference myself!
That fits me to a tee! But where I saw it is gonna bother me until I remember

Anyway,
Hand-made is for snowballs and maybe paperdarts, neither of which have much function and don't last very long. (Excepting some fine examples of origami maybe!)

(hammer)

 

[studur]

@Benchwayze - no offense taken at all Thank you for your kind words. If you saw me on a woodworking forum, it was probably a french one lamortaise.com...

I agree with the latter poster. A power tool has the power to make more damages. Like a guide that moves and send your router in the wrong direction. And in the end, you still have to use you hand tools to do the repairs.

 

[marcus]

I’m coming in a bit late on this, but just came across the thread and have a few thoughts....

It might be hard or impossible to tell the difference between individual hand-cut and machine-cut M&Ts, but that’s not the whole story. One joint doesn't make a piece of furniture.

Hand tools have their own “logic”. There are certain operations which are easy and straightforward for them, and others which are more difficult, time consuming and "illogical". Machines have a somewhat different logic. If you make the decision to use predominantly hand tools while still hoping to be efficient then this is going to effect everything you do, from the design and timber selection onwards. It’s not usually a question of thinking a piece up without regard for how you’re going to make it - the methods open to you are a huge part of the design process. A design to be made with hand tools will, in a project of any complexity, usually end up quite a bit different to how it would be if you were intending to mostly use machines.

Producing good work, relatively quickly, with hand tools is possible (except for initial ripping and thicknessing), but one has to approach it differently. Accuracy for it’s own sake goes out the window, things are only perfectly straight, square, flush or smooth where they have to be. You quickly find the true worth of the face side, face edge system which enable small errors to accumulate in places where they don’t matter. The rule “if it looks right it is right” comes into it’s own, because the skill is more about juggling imperfections so that the eye doesn’t notice them, rather than trying to be geometrically correct.

These sort of factors may be quite subtle but put them together and they are less so. Work that is made with hand tools, and with hand tool logic rather than machine logic IS, to my eye, different in character to work made with jigged machines, and the more detail you add, the more different it becomes. Looking at Sidney Barnsley’s chip carved hay-rake tables in the Cheltenham Museum it’s hard to imagine them being made by machine. And that is a big part of their appeal - they feel (to me anyway) more personal.

Another approach to hand tool use is that of David Charlesworth who seeks to equal or exceed the accuracy of machines with hand tools - 1 thou shavings etc. I’m not anti this at all, and it’s great to see people pushing the envelope in this way. However it’s worth at least being aware that it has very little to do with how woodworking has been done historically. One doesn’t need extreme accuracy to make lovely things...

I have found that clients’ understanding about what “handmade” means is very different from person to person. Some (not many to be honest) associate the word with hand tools, and would be disappointed to find their furniture had all been made with a router. Others just want to know that the furniture is individually made by a skilled craftsperson.

The one thing that really gets my goat is when importers of crappy mass produced furniture promote it as handmade. It happens a lot, and to me this is just straightforward dishonesty.

 

[bjm]

Interesting debate....now I'll chip in.

I consider the term 'handmade' (or hand-crafted) to evoke a sense of skill and craftsmanship that has been relied upon in the development and production of a piece. This would generally be an individual piece but would include, for example, a set of dining chairs whereby production techniques would be employed in producing multiple components. Would that make the set a production piece rather than a handmade piece?

It takes knowledge and skill to transform raw timber into a piece of furniture and whether you use a hand plane or a P/T to prepare your stock is hardly relevant. I would suggest the transition away from 'handmade' is when you can remove the craftsman from the equation. An automated factory can churn out replicas without skilled labour but someone skilled has to start that lengthy process and monitor it. The craftsman does it without thinking!


Brian

 

[ike]

Hand made - is when hand-eye coordination is employed to manipulate the material to the tool or vice versa. Requiring hand skill(s)