When is hand made not hand made?

[Handworkfan]

The problem may largely be one of semantics, but a customer swayed by the 'hand made' or 'hand crafted' label is, I would suggest, subscribing to a romantic image of the pre industrial age, and I do think this must be considered.
To cite the hand made nature of jigs and fixtures does seem something of a sophistication - the tool is hand made, not the product.

So would that include the preparation of the timber from the log?
The 'pre-industrial age' would, unless I am seriously mistaken have included the use of such things as shooting boards, donkey's ear shoots, and fence-guided plough planes. So the romantic images are still catered for if a shooting board has been used.
My point about the hand-made jigs was simply that the jigs don't in any way replace hand skills because they were made using them - I think that is in a different category from industrial jigs and fixtures.
I agree, it's an impossible term to define - that's why I think customers are entitled to know what we, indicidually, mean by describing our work as hand made.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

So would that include the preparation of the timber from the log?

Perhaps perversely, I would think not, since the rough dimensioned riven or sawn stock is the raw material of the cabinet maker.

The 'pre-industrial age' would, unless I am seriously mistaken have included the use of such things as shooting boards, donkey's ear shoots, and fence-guided plough planes. So the romantic images are still catered for if a shooting board has been used.

True, and just as the plane itself is a jig, I think this highlights why the spirit rather than the letter is all that can sensibly be followed.

My point about the hand-made jigs was simply that the jigs don't in any way replace hand skills because they were made using them - I think that is in a different category from industrial jigs and fixtures.

Ah - this harks back to my distinction of the cabinet maker's realm. The jigs have replaced cabinetry hand skills with those of the toolmaker. That the modern cabinetmaker is also toolmaker seems like a nonsequiteur to me. Otherwise, the label is indeed without meaning (work back far enough and all tooling will have a progenitative tool which required the toolmaker's or patternmaker's handicraft)

I agree, it's an impossible term to define - that's why I think customers are entitled to know what we, individually, mean by describing our work as hand made.

Now that seems unreasonbly sensible for a debate like this

 

[Handworkfan]

I agree, it's an impossible term to define - that's why I think customers are entitled to know what we, individually, mean by describing our work as hand made.

Now that seems unreasonbly sensible for a debate like this

:lol: =D>

 

[promhandicam]

I'd be interested to know if LN considers the plaque made by CNC Paul for his plane box to be hand made or not?

Steve

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Rob asked,

A CNC machine is also a tool that has had to be set up at some point by hand, both mechanically and with a suitable piece of software...so are things made by this sort of machine also 'hand made'?..

As did Steve,

I'd be interested to know if LN considers the plaque made by CNC Paul for his plane box to be hand made or not?

I'd would argue that only the first product from a CNC machine is "hand made". All the remainder are machine copies.

And to the issue of "when is an item hand made", the answer is "whenever a manufacturer believes this will afford some sales advantage".

Of course, Karl's planes could never be mistaken for being hand made since they are too perfect. Karl, it is important to introduce some imperfections into your wonderful creations..... just a little advice. Also, I'm still waiting for that review plane to arrive .. it's been "in the post" for a couple of years now

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[promhandicam]

Having thought about this some more, I think the answer to the OP's question is, when it is mass produced. Something can be made almost entirely by machine - as in the case of Lord Nibbo's plaque - but still, as far as I am concerned be hand made. Had CNC Paul produced 100 such plaques - each identical then they would be mass produced even though the method of manufacture is the same.

Steve

 

[Lord Nibbo]

Having thought about this some more, I think the answer to the OP's question is, when it is mass produced. Something can be made almost entirely by machine - as in the case of Lord Nibbo's plaque - but still, as far as I am concerned be hand made. Had CNC Paul produced 100 such plaques - each identical then they would be mass produced even though the method of manufacture is the same.

Steve

Put quite eloquently, my sentiments entirely. =D> =D> =D>

 

[wizer]

Mine too :sign3:

 

[bugbear]

It's a continuous spectrum (more hand made-less hand made). Not much more to it than that.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

Having thought about this some more, I think the answer to the OP's question is, when it is mass produced.

Where does that notion put smith-made nails?

BugBear

 

[tnimble]

I'd would argue that only the first product from a CNC machine is "hand made". All the remainder are machine copies.

If applying to same principle to say a table saw or a router rable used to create the rails, styles and panels for a set of door for a cabinate, only the first rail, style and even tennon would be 'hand made'.

It would be even more so that the other rails, styles and panels are machine made / machine copies id est mass produced than the average CNCed part.

Let me explain. Take the instance of the rails. The table saw blade and fence are setup one and tweaked to perform the proper cross or rip cut (whatever comes first due to the bought lumber). The first sawed rail is hand made as there was a some hand work of setting up the saw and correcting small mistakes. The rest of all the styles are machine copies as only the stock was needed to be fed through the machine to produce a copy of the first. (I don't believe anybody would setup th e saw again for each repative cut)

With the CNC machine, after doing all design and creating a cut list (just as one had done with the above example) for each and every piece regardless of the piece being the first, the second or hundred there is a lot of hand work to to clamp the raw stock (or partly machines pieece) in place and align the part relative to the machine its X, Y and Z axes.

The risk per part (and equally high for each next part) to have a part not according to design is much higher than with the table saw or router examples (where the risk of a part not matching the design is high for the first part and low for the repative parts).

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Custom made it may be but not hand made.
If I thickness 20 back and side sets using just a hand plane and scrapers, they are hand prepared.
If I thickness one using my drum sander, it is not.
If I spend the time to bend a batch of mandolin sides over a hot pipe, they are hand made, whether I bend one set or twenty.
If I pop a single set into a Fox style mold to get the same result, they are not hand made.
If I cope, rasp and file twenty headstocks to shape, they are handmade. If I used a template to route a single headstock, it is machine made, whether the template will be reused or not.

 

[tnimble]

Custom made it may be but not hand made.
If I thickness 20 back and side sets using just a hand plane and scrapers, they are hand prepared.
If I thickness one using my drum sander, it is not.
If I spend the time to bend a batch of mandolin sides over a hot pipe, they are hand made, whether I bend one set or twenty.
If I pop a single set into a Fox style mold to get the same result, they are not hand made.
If I cope, rasp and file twenty headstocks to shape, they are handmade. If I used a template to route a single headstock, it is machine made, whether the template will be reused or not.

Excatly!

 

[Benchwayze]

You wouldn't 'kerf' the sides of a guitar (The ribs maybe) so making guitar sides is usually done by applying heat, I would think.

Therefore isn't the 'Fox mould', just an advanced version of a hot pipe? The actual heat source is irrelevant. You are not bending wood by hand, but by heat. Whether you use a hot pipe or an electrically heated mould, presumably you put the pieces in by hand. So maybe your guitar sides are neither one nor the other.

Quality issues aside, would they be hand made if I made a shaped press and formed the sides with layers of veneer, glued in the press? (The jig?)

Couldn't the right species be well soaked in hot water and formed this way in the solid too?

I think that in the luthier's workshop you have to resort to partial machine methods somewhere. (Your fretwire and machine heads are usually bought in?) This doesn't alter the fact that an instrument made by you would be far superior to one made even by the Gibson factory today!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AhkPU9zslQk

 

[Benchwayze]

One thing I can vouch for, however this guy makes his guitars, they aren't exactly mass-produced, the quality of sound is superlative.

The playing itself is almost as good as mine ! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah, ok, disregard the last sentence.

John :mrgreen:

 

[dunbarhamlin]

You wouldn't 'kerf' the sides of a guitar (The ribs maybe) so making guitar sides is usually done by applying heat, I would think.

Therefore isn't the 'Fox mould', just an advanced version of a hot pipe? The actual heat source is irrelevant. You are not bending wood by hand, but by heat. Whether you use a hot pipe or an electrically heated mould, presumably you put the pieces in by hand. So maybe your guitar sides are neither one nor the other.

The wood is rendered pliable by heat and moisture. It is bent by keeping it moving over the pipe with hand pressure to form and fix the necessary curves (very much a manual skill) or by wrapping it and placing in a mold with a heat source (no manual skill required, just past experience for timings and temperatures) I use a mold for most parts - reliable, repeatable, but not handiwork.

Quality issues aside, would they be hand made if I made a shaped press and formed the sides with layers of veneer, glued in the press? (The jig?)

Just as using a Fox or male/female mold. I make my own molds, but the finished product is only finished by hand in this regard, not handmade.

Couldn't the right species be well soaked in hot water and formed this way in the solid too?

Provided the ribs are thin enough, it doesn't even have to be hot water. Some violin luthiers cold form their ribs. High heat reduces spring back and reduces risk of wood failure (except with high figure, where it may actually increase it, though I haven't tried the other way)

I think that in the luthier's workshop you have to resort to partial machine methods somewhere. (Your fretwire and machine heads are usually bought in?) This doesn't alter the fact that an instrument made by you would be far superior to one made even by the Gibson factory today!

Fretwire as bought is pretty much like S4C. It still needs refining for fit, and then of course dressing (levelling and shaping) once installed. Installation is also subject to methods involving more or less handiwork. I use a mitre block and template rather than saw the slots freehand (a large operation might either use CNC or multibladed tablesaw - the reason certain generations of Gibson have common fret spacing faults,) though do hammer my frets rather than using a press.
Tuning machines are just like cabinet furniture. Depending on the source they need more or less work to refine finish, fit and function.
(Happily Gibson don't make cylinderbacks, so we're not in competition )
You're right that, reallistically, unless using gut frets and wooden tuning pegs, some machined parts are unavoidable.

 

[studur]

My 2cents...

I would say that something is hand made if hand tools are used to make it. Like in the old days, a hundred years ago, when my great grand dad in the winter time when the fields were frozen would spend a couple months to make a cabinet with his tools. A hand made mortise and a mortiser made mortise are 2 different thing imho.

If i buy something hand made, I would assume that no power tools were used to make it except maybe the starting lumber. I dont think that you have to cut your own tree to be entitled to hand-made...

I think that cabinet maker should refer to custom-made instead of hand made in case of original furniture made with power tools. If I would go out and buy something hand-made with an electric planer, jointer, table saw, router, shaper, then I would say the maker is a liar. Sure it is custom-made and not these million copies type of furniture, it does not remove the talent of the cabinetmaker but hand tools and power tools are different things.

Now running to my nuclear bunker because I see the outrage coming up...

 

[woodbloke]

Custom made it may be but not hand made.
If I thickness 20 back and side sets using just a hand plane and scrapers, they are hand prepared.
If I thickness one using my drum sander, it is not.
If I spend the time to bend a batch of mandolin sides over a hot pipe, they are hand made, whether I bend one set or twenty.
If I pop a single set into a Fox style mold to get the same result, they are not hand made.
If I cope, rasp and file twenty headstocks to shape, they are handmade. If I used a template to route a single headstock, it is machine made, whether the template will be reused or not.

It's clear that there's a huge blurring in the division between what's construed as 'hand-made, hand-prepared, hand-guided' etc or whichever layer of the 'by hand' argument that's being discussed and the notion of using some sort of powered machine (or otherwise) to produce the end result(s) What is evident is that as soon as 'hand' comes into the equation the chances of failure ie: 'workmanship of risk' goes up and conversely as soon as a machine of some sort is used the chance of failure ie 'the workmanship of certainty' is reduced. Hence the reason that as soon as objects are made on a CNC tool, the rate of failure in the finished product (once the initial set-up has been done) ought to be zero - Rob

 

[Jake]

It's a lot more risky to use a belt sander than a hand sanding pad - or to try to plane something accurately with an electric plane.

Can we discuss how many angels can dance on the edge of a very sharp chisel next, please?

 

[Benchwayze]

My 2cents...

A hand made mortise and a mortiser made mortise are 2 different thing imho.

But if you were shown shown two, glued up and finished blind joints; one made by 'hand' and the other by a morticer, could you tell the difference?

And, provided they are both well made, would one be stronger than the other?

:lol: :lol: :lol: