What router bits do I need for this job?

[mrodent]

Well you seem to have researched the job just take care a bouncing router is deadly as I said before check Mighton site they supply all types of seals for windows and the cutters along with some useful vids and drawings nothing to loose

Tips like this from someone like yourself with experience specific to my task are like gold dust. So I looked at the Mighton site. Although there are some things about casements there (all my windows are casements), it seems mainly about sashes. The weatherstrip seal I'm favouring is a bulb seal, as there is (very conveniently) a shallow groove, maybe 8 mm wide, running all around the insides of the FIXED frames of my windows: hopefully a bulb of suitable dimensions, attached to the frames of the CASEMENT frames will be able to fit quite snugly in there, helping block out both cold and noise. I'll have a deeper look at the Mighton site though.

Could I ask you to try and identify the type of bit here: ... at 5 min. 35 s? This guy describes this bit (used for rabbets/rebates) as a '3/4" straight bit with a bearing on it... top-mounted bearing'. But to me, in that vid, it doesn't look particularly straight: I've got the impression that straight bits are not always that effective, and that various non-straight bit types can help clear away the shavings more efficiently, for example.

 

[mrodent]

Using a router table will not be practical in this instance. For the same reason its not wise to cut an 8 x4 sheet on a little table saw, but safer to use a track saw, bringing the "smaller thing to the bigger thing" if you see what I mean.
That tiny router is designed for trimming with one hand and is very easy to control.
If you struggle you can make up a larger sub base to help with keeping it flat to the template.

As for the method I tried to explain. Basically you want to make a big square frame, like a flat picture frame. The internal dimension is the same as the rebate for the glass in the given opening. In multi pane sashes or casements you will do each pane one at a time.
You fix this frame to the casement by clamps, screws, pins, or whatever is convenient as long as its secure.
Then you set the router bit to the correct height and route away the wood until its a perfect fresh rebate.
It's best not to try and take a 10mm cut straight away but rather two passes at 5mm for example.

I would not use a decent wealdon cutter for this process. Cheapo ebay ones Erbauer from screwfix or silverline from Toolstation is fine, you will be throwing them out after.
Bits of putty and stuff will ruin them.
We used to use the 19mm ones from silverline. The bearing needs to be on the top end of the bit ( nearest the shank ).
It's pretty easy once you have done the first one.

Ollie

Thanks again. I understand what you're recommending now and it's great to hear the voice of experience.

Hadn't occurred to me that putty could run a high-quality bit and therefore use a cheapo one...! But I'm apprehensive about low-quality bits: aren't they more likely to shatter, thus posing yet another safety concern on top of those I already have as a router newbie?

Could I ask you to try and identify the type of bit here: ... at 5 min. 35 s? This guy describes this bit (used for rabbets/rebates) as a '3/4" straight bit with a bearing on it... top-mounted bearing'. But to me, in that vid, it doesn't look particularly straight: I've got the impression that straight bits are not always that effective, and that various non-straight bit types can help clear away the shavings more efficiently, for example.

 

[Thingybob]

Tips like this from someone like yourself with experience specific to my task are like gold dust. So I looked at the Mighton site. Although there are some things about casements there (all my windows are casements), it seems mainly about sashes. The weatherstrip seal I'm favouring is a bulb seal, as there is (very conveniently) a shallow groove, maybe 8 mm wide, running all around the insides of the FIXED frames of my windows: hopefully a bulb of suitable dimensions, attached to the frames of the CASEMENT frames will be able to fit quite snugly in there, helping block out both cold and noise. I'll have a deeper look at the Mighton site though.

Could I ask you to try and identify the type of bit here: ... at 5 min. 35 s? This guy describes this bit (used for rabbets/rebates) as a '3/4" straight bit with a bearing on it... top-mounted bearing'. But to me, in that vid, it doesn't look particularly straight: I've got the impression that straight bits are not always that effective, and that various non-straight bit types can help clear away the shavings more efficiently, for example.

It's 2 flute straight cutter with bearing guide but he's using a more powerful router to take a bigger bite

Tips like this from someone like yourself with experience specific to my task are like gold dust. So I looked at the Mighton site. Although there are some things about casements there (all my windows are casements), it seems mainly about sashes. The weatherstrip seal I'm favouring is a bulb seal, as there is (very conveniently) a shallow groove, maybe 8 mm wide, running all around the insides of the FIXED frames of my windows: hopefully a bulb of suitable dimensions, attached to the frames of the CASEMENT frames will be able to fit quite snugly in there, helping block out both cold and noise. I'll have a deeper look at the Mighton site though.

Could I ask you to try and identify the type of bit here: ... at 5 min. 35 s? This guy describes this bit (used for rabbets/rebates) as a '3/4" straight bit with a bearing on it... top-mounted bearing'. But to me, in that vid, it doesn't look particularly straight: I've got the impression that straight bits are not always that effective, and that various non-straight bit types can help clear away the shavings more efficiently, for example.

If you have the Toolstation catalogue go to page 583 second from the left Trend template profile cutter it's straight and has a bearing follower that runs against the template is the flat piece of wood the guy runs the router along that he clamped on Try to ignore the lack of hearing protection and mask he is using you will be cutting wood that has paint and putty on from the days of lead paint I'm 72 and still have unscathed digits all 10 of them play safe

 

[mrodent]

It's 2 flute straight cutter with bearing guide but he's using a more powerful router to take a bigger bite

If you have the Toolstation catalogue go to page 583 second from the left Trend template profile cutter it's straight and has a bearing follower that runs against the template is the flat piece of wood the guy runs the router along that he clamped on Try to ignore the lack of hearing protection and mask he is using you will be cutting wood that has paint and putty on from the days of lead paint I'm 72 and still have unscathed digits all 10 of them play safe

Got it, great.

Lead paint! ... yes, I'll be wearing hearing protection, and also now mask in well-ventilated space.

 

[Thingybob]

It's 2 flute straight cutter with bearing guide but he's using a more powerful router to take a bigger bite

If you have the Toolstation catalogue go to page 583 second from the left Trend template profile cutter it's straight and has a bearing follower that runs against the template is the flat piece of wood the guy runs the router along that he clamped on Try to ignore the lack of hearing protection and mask he is using you will be cutting wood that has paint and putty on from the days of lead paint I'm 72 and still have unscathed digits all 10 of them play safe

I've actually got 20 but I don't use tools with my feet

 

[Ollie78]

Thanks again. I understand what you're recommending now and it's great to hear the voice of experience.

Hadn't occurred to me that putty could run a high-quality bit and therefore use a cheapo one...! But I'm apprehensive about low-quality bits: aren't they more likely to shatter, thus posing yet another safety concern on top of those I already have as a router newbie?

Could I ask you to try and identify the type of bit here: ... at 5 min. 35 s? This guy describes this bit (used for rabbets/rebates) as a '3/4" straight bit with a bearing on it... top-mounted bearing'. But to me, in that vid, it doesn't look particularly straight: I've got the impression that straight bits are not always that effective, and that various non-straight bit types can help clear away the shavings more efficiently, for example.

I have never had a router bit disintegrate, I think it is very unlikely.
Generally the difference between quality of bits is the better ones have larger sections of carbide and will be finished/balanced/sharpenned better. You really can tell the difference in quality with a Wealdon or Titman vs a generic cheapo.
This makes a lot of difference to the quality of cut and longevity of the bit, assuming they are mostly used in nice clean new wood in a joinery shop.

When using a bit to clean out old putty lined rebates with bits of glass and sneaky pins in it you will knacker a bit that costs £50 just as quick as one that is £5 so don`t waste your money.
The type of bit you want is often called a pattern bit, they come in different lengths, so work out the best size. Assuming mdf template is 18mm this will give maximum and minimum depths, bearing near the top of template and bearing near the bottom of template.

These cheapo ones would be fine.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/33462591...+2tPjtrBhpOeZvUp0wcIQTVhrH5R|tkp:BFBMyNrYkMZh
Bits with spirals are great and provide a shear cut, I love compression bits for CNC machining and routing plywood (clean edges on both faces ) but for most things its not necessary and pretty expensive as well.

P.S The fixed casements will probably have a few nails in them likely toe nailed ( meaning at an angle ) through the casement into the frame.
The best way to tackle this is with a Fein saw, go around the perimeter with it to break the paint or mastic seal inside and out, you will find the pins and either be able to cut through them or punch them in to remove the casement, easy peasy.


Ollie

 

[mrodent]

I have never had a router bit disintegrate, I think it is very unlikely.
Generally the difference between quality of bits is the better ones have larger sections of carbide and will be finished/balanced/sharpenned better. You really can tell the difference in quality with a Wealdon or Titman vs a generic cheapo.
This makes a lot of difference to the quality of cut and longevity of the bit, assuming they are mostly used in nice clean new wood in a joinery shop.

When using a bit to clean out old putty lined rebates with bits of glass and sneaky pins in it you will knacker a bit that costs £50 just as quick as one that is £5 so don`t waste your money.
The type of bit you want is often called a pattern bit, they come in different lengths, so work out the best size. Assuming mdf template is 18mm this will give maximum and minimum depths, bearing near the top of template and bearing near the bottom of template.

These cheapo ones would be fine.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/33462591...+2tPjtrBhpOeZvUp0wcIQTVhrH5R|tkp:BFBMyNrYkMZh
Bits with spirals are great and provide a shear cut, I love compression bits for CNC machining and routing plywood (clean edges on both faces ) but for most things its not necessary and pretty expensive as well.

P.S The fixed casements will probably have a few nails in them likely toe nailed ( meaning at an angle ) through the casement into the frame.
The best way to tackle this is with a Fein saw, go around the perimeter with it to break the paint or mastic seal inside and out, you will find the pins and either be able to cut through them or punch them in to remove the casement, easy peasy.


Ollie

More great advice, thanks. Got it re cheapo, pattern bits.

What do you mean by a "Fein saw"? ... "Fein" appears to be a brand, which produces things like multi-tool devices (oscillating blade): is this what you mean? I have a recip saw already but it would (obviously) be much better to ease out the non-opening frames by digging out sealant and/or nails as required, rather than cutting through wood.

Was contemplating getting one of these oscillating multi-tool devices.

 

[Ollie78]

More great advice, thanks. Got it re cheapo, pattern bits.

What do you mean by a "Fein saw"? ... "Fein" appears to be a brand, which produces things like multi-tool devices (oscillating blade): is this what you mean? I have a recip saw already but it would (obviously) be much better to ease out the non-opening frames by digging out sealant and/or nails as required, rather than cutting through wood.

Was contemplating getting one of these oscillating multi-tool devices.

Yes, I mean an "oscillating multi tool" . Fein used to be the only ones till the patent ran out.

They are the sort of tool you will use all the time once you have it, and wonder why you didn't buy one years ago.
I would suggest getting a Fein one, I am on my 3rd one so they last at least 10 years each of serious use, they are properly built.
Don't bother with battery ones, you need a vacuum for the dust anyway so will need power.

The only caveat being the Starlock system which Bosch has as well.
New ones are all star lock whereas the older ones had a lever locking system.
With the old ones you can use cheap copy blades. But the Starlock blades are much more expensive or at least they were.
I bought one of the last non starlock ones just because of this.


Ollie

 

[Thingybob]

More great advice, thanks. Got it re cheapo, pattern bits.

What do you mean by a "Fein saw"? ... "Fein" appears to be a brand, which produces things like multi-tool devices (oscillating blade): is this what you mean? I have a recip saw already but it would (obviously) be much better to ease out the non-opening frames by digging out sealant and/or nails as required, rather than cutting through wood.

Was contemplating getting one of these oscillating multi-tool devices.

This is where you spend a fortune on tools you don't have don't forget to keep a tally of the final cost to do one set of windows is from the day you start to the day the new paint dries as upstairs might cost scaffold or a tower at least

 

[Thingybob]

I did a bit of digging in my unfinished workshop and thought yo might find these pics informative

3mm/1/8" Grover for fitting the Mighton seal systems from Mighton

a two winged cutter fromWhealden and a multi stack arbour 6mm shank this type of cutter and arbour would be versitile for your future needs by just buying winged cutters of different widths

and the Faithful bearing guided straight cutter reasonable price1/4" shank 1/2 dia cutter

 

[Thingybob]

With the multi height arbour you can get bearings to adjust the depth of cut you want

 

[mrodent]

With the multi height arbour you can get bearings to adjust the depth of cut you want

Thanks. I've already acquired a groover bit very much like that from Wealden, and a couple of cheaper bits for the rabbet side of things inspired by your advice.

Fully aware of the issue of "too many power tools"! In fact I prevaricated quite a bit even before getting a router: I have some wood carving abilities, and it would be possible to do all this rabbet enlargement entirely by hand. But it would take ages (to do it well) given that I've got 55 windows in total! As for doing a 3 mm groove without a router, probably even more tricky.

 

[Doug71]

Here is a quick sketch of how I've used AQ21 seal in the past to draught proof opening casements if it makes any sense. The good thing is it's flexible so works with different sized gaps. I'm not really sure on how or where you are using the bulb seal you mention but some of them (and brush seals) don't work that well in the edge of casements unless the clearances are spot on.

 

[mrodent]

Here is a quick sketch of how I've used AQ21 seal in the past to draught proof opening casements if it makes any sense. The good thing is it's flexible so works with different sized gaps. I'm not really sure on how or where you are using the bulb seal you mention but some of them (and brush seals) don't work that well in the edge of casements unless the clearances are spot on.

Thanks for the benefit of your experience.

I'm not totally committed to a bulb seal. But one thing is that, for some reason, all the fixed frames (i.e. that part of the window attached to the building) here have a very shallow groove, perhaps 8 mm wide, into which I'm hoping the heads of the bulb seals (i.e. attached to the casement frames) can be made to fit quite nicely.

I'm not sure of the pros and cons of the different types of weatherstrip seal. I am quite concerned that whatever weatherstrip seal I use will help 1) exclude rain 2) stop heat loss but also 3) provide quite a useful contribution to noise insulation.

Your suggested seal also involves a groove with a slightly more complex profile (a bulb seal just needs a 3 mm groove).

I can see how this profile of yours could cater for more variation in clearances. Hmmm... probably the sort of thing I'll only manage to assess when I come to do the job!

 

[Thingybob]

Mr odent sorry if handle is used wrongly
If your going to do more jobs on your home in future a three book set that might be a godsend to you is Carpentry and Joinery by Brian Porter it was originally printed in 1990 and covers most aspects and tools associated with C&J in houses well worth the outlay you might pick up on eBay or Amazon you won't be sorry if you buy

 

[HOJ]

all the fixed frames (i.e. that part of the window attached to the building) here have a very shallow groove, perhaps 8 mm wide, into which I'm hoping the heads of the bulb seals (i.e. attached to the casement frames) can be made to fit quite nicely.

That's part of the design, technically its a Pressure relief groove which is located behind the outer face of the window to allow any air blown through this joint to expand, reducing pressure on the seals, and dropping any airborne moisture into the groove before it reaches the weather seal, not a good idea to compromise its given purpose.

 

[mrodent]

That's part of the design, technically its a Pressure relief groove which is located behind the outer face of the window to allow any air blown through this joint to expand, reducing pressure on the seals, and dropping any airborne moisture into the groove before it reaches the weather seal, not a good idea to compromise its given purpose.

Interesting... I learn something new with every post.

These windows were built in the 1930s. As far as I know they have never had any weatherstrip-type seals, (or in fact seals of any kind) and certainly there is no groove in the casements or fixed frames where someone might have installed one at any point.

But you may be saying: "make sure the weatherstrip is installed to the interior-side of these shallow grooves, not actually level with them"...?

PS a feature of all these casements is that they are all storm casements, i.e. they have a very small lip on the outside which really helps prevent any water ingress.

 

[Thingybob]

If they are storm casements they should be fitted with storm proof hinges is ones with a 90° crank in them to stop the flange of the window frame fouling the casement frame at this point a few pics would be handy for us to diagnose what you are doing

 

[HOJ]

storm casements

Principally these were introduced in the 1950's, as @Thingybob said pictures would help

 

[mrodent]

Here's a photo which hopefully shows things: it shows the external "lip" going round the outside. It also shows the hinges fairly clearly, and to date I've never found any problem with "fouling" of the casement frames. Not sure about a "90 degree crank" - not sure what that means.

These hinges are I think a bit beefier than normal. Plus, as I shall be turning a lot of the currently opening casements into non-opening ones, my plan is to cannibalise these hinges from the future non-opening ones so that instead of 2 hinges per casement I can have 4 per casement for the ones will be still be opening (as I say, the new LandVac vacuum glazing panes will be substantially heavier than the existing ones).