What does 'organic' mean to you?

[Shady]

OK folks, I want to be educated...

I've never been particularly 'aware' of organic food issues, but recent accidental picking up of organic milk at Sainsburys got me thinking about it all. What is the real point of buying organic? taste? health? I've done a little cursory web crawling, and it appears to me that truly independent scientific analysis is very thin on the ground. What little there is seems to support the view that a) there is, all other things being equal, no discernable taste difference, and b) no nutritional difference.

Don't want to start a war, just intrigued to hear what people think...

 

[Adam]

Organic to me means reduced use of pesiticides/chemicals to provide the same item. I have no expectation of it tasting "better", or having better "nutritional" benefits, although I've no doubt some people would argue this. For those specific benefits I think fresh home grown food, havested and eaten preferably the same day is the way to go.

Even the use of chemicals/antibiotics/pesticides/insecticides on crops is at least partially permitted. But nontheless I expect organic items to have less residue.

Adam

 

[Shady]

Fair point: I knew there'd be some sensible heads on this board... :wink: Although, having now ascertained which fertiliser is commonest on organic farms, I fear there may be different residues that I might want to know about...

 

[Jake]

Farms that rear animals for organically labelled meat (or milk, eggs, etc) have to comply with much higher welfare standards than ordinary or "free range" producers.

I think that is worth it from an ethical perspective alone, but it also impacts on taste, as the animals have a more natural, low intensity life and also tend to be more traditional breeds (although that is not a standards issue, just the mentality of the producers and consumers).

Veg, I don't care so much.

 

[wizer]

Whilst I totally agree with the organic movement and understand that there has to be a marginal cost increase to produce fruit and veg via these strict rules, I just think it is too expensive. I so think that the supermarkets are cashing in on the organic 'buzz'. It is for that reason that I recently took on an allotment and am battling my way up a steep learning curve towards producing my own fruit and veg. I won't be totaly organic in the first year or two but eventually I will have the peace of mind that my produce is 'safe' and my wallet is not lighter because of it.

 

[PowerTool]

"Organic" fruit and veg is (or should be) grown without pesticides,herbicides and artificial fertilizers. e.g. if you grow alternate rows of onions and carrots,the smell of the onions keeps carrotfly away without having to spray chemicals on them.
Borage was a crop often grown as "green fertilizer" - it is sown,grown,then ploughed back into the soil (to increase the levels of nutrients) rather than being harvested.

And cow poo is very little other than processed grass,so nothing to worry about there.. :wink:

Andrew (BTEC in Agriculture)

 

[cambournepete]

I prefer to buy organic where I think it's justified, but the cost can be ridiculous at times, so I don't bother.

To me it also means fewer pesticides and drugs and better animal welfare.
We always try to buy organic milk in particular, especially for our 3 and bit year old son, as the cows produce much less milk than the non-organic ones as they aren't forced and are much better looked after in general.

Pete

 

[Adam]

as the cows produce much less milk than the non-organic ones as they aren't forced

Can you explain that a bit? Despite coming from a family who had a dairy herd, I'm a bit in the dark about how they "force" a cow?

Adam

 

[StevieB]

To me organic means no pesticides used. At least thats what I think it should mean, the reality is I believe slightly different, but lower use of pesticides etc than 'normal' farming.

I buy organic free range eggs, apart from that not alot else, as the price markup is extortionate IMHO. Like most industries farming is full of horror stories about what really goes on. I used to work as a stevedore in the docks unloading fruit from ships. If you saw the quality of oranges that went for orange juice (because they couldn't be sold as whole oranges) you would never drink it again!

Its a similar situation to fair trade goods - ethically better but there is always that niggle that the 20% more it costs me doesn't benefit the grower by 20% :?

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

as the cows produce much less milk than the non-organic ones as they aren't forced

Can you explain that a bit? Despite coming from a family who had a dairy herd, I'm a bit in the dark about how they "force" a cow?

Adam

I was once told that they force a cow to deliver milk by making it pregnant every year - makes sense as animals only produce milk to feed their young and with no young to feed, there is no milk

 

[dedee]

Is it possible that we expect to pay far to little for what we expect to be quality food?
I now that this does not answer the original question but the price we pay for non organic, mass produced, force fed (or grown), and stored for months commoditites cannot, to me anyhow, cover the costs involved.

Chickens seem to sum this up for me. The cheapest available seem to cost less than a couple of quid and they taste awful, if they have any taste at all.
And another thing why to I have to buy two to get £5 off, can't I just buy one and get £2.50 off instead?

Andy, whose total organic pots, toms, beans, apples, pears and blackcurrents knock spots of the best supermarket organics any day.

 

[wizer]

I totaly agree with you Andy. allthough we have been 'brought up' on those low prices and hence have budgeted our lives accordingly. Making the change to an organic lifestyle means some kind of financial adjustment. Less money for toys!

 

[Adam]

as the cows produce much less milk than the non-organic ones as they aren't forced

Can you explain that a bit? Despite coming from a family who had a dairy herd, I'm a bit in the dark about how they "force" a cow?

Adam

I was once told that they force a cow to deliver milk by making it pregnant every year - makes sense as animals only produce milk to feed their young and with no young to feed, there is no milk

But that applies to both organic and non-organic equally surely?

Adam

 

[Jake]

The big differences for dairy are feeding, housing and drugs - and the treatment of the calves.

I think for organics, the regulations stipulate how much food has to come from forage and how much from supplements (which have to be organic themselves, so no sheep protein was fed to organic cows). The higher the protein in a cow's diet the more milk it can produce (roughly speaking). Grazing is not particularly effective compared to more modern intensive feeding regimes. Housing is tied in with that, and organic farmers have to leave cows out as long as possible. Because of the protein thing, non-organic farms will bring cows in earlier because then their food intake can be controlled. There also seem to be standards as to housing for organic cows that non-organic farmers do not have to follow - although reading them, they don't sound out of the ordinary, having to have straw on the floor, for instance. You'd hope all farmers would do that anyway, but if organic rules have to stipulate that, you have to wonder at what conditions some cows must be kept in.

Antibiotics can't be used as routinely.

Calves cannot be penned, must be raised in family groups, and have to be fed cow's milk for longer.

 

[cambournepete]

as the cows produce much less milk than the non-organic ones as they aren't forced

Can you explain that a bit? Despite coming from a family who had a dairy herd, I'm a bit in the dark about how they "force" a cow?
Adam

It was late and I was trying to be too brief and should have included a link, so try looking here for what the organic milk people say.
Pete

 

[WoodPecker]

Cows and milk
It's a natural cycle for a cow to produce a calf every year, there's nothing forced about it, as a result of this natural cyule cows don't produce milk for a few months before calving. Whereas in the good old USofA cows are fed hormones to produce milk all year round now that's forced.

The taste of food
Commercial food production in Britain and Ireland concentrate on producing food which looks good and has a longer shelf life rather than what it tastes like. I watched a really interesting fact show a while back where they were talking about strawberries and tomatoes in particular, the varities which the supermarket demand from the producers are the ones which look good and last longer, it just so happens that the varieties of strawberry and tomato which fit this description are the most incipit in each case. The same must go for a lot of other fruit and veg.
Organic growing is done at a much smaller scale, so the growers tend to grow varities which taste much better anyway. So, when someone says organic food tastes much better, they are usually right, but it's probably got nothing to do with the fact that it's grown organically.

 

[PowerTool]

Dairy cows ideally have a calf every year.
This is measured by the Calving Index,which is the number of days between calves,and ideally is 365 (i.e. one per year) but in reality is more like 380.
So there is a short period of time every year when a cow is not producing milk,then after calving,the first few days milk cannot go into the milk tank (as it is mainly colostrum - rich in antibodies to help newborns immune system to develop)
Obviously,the idea is to stagger the periods when cows do not produce milk to have a reasonably constant supply for sale.

As for the calves,heifers (females) get kept as replacements for the dairy herd,and bulls/bullocks (castrated males) go for beef production.
And although farms keep beef herds for the production of meat,over half of the UKs beef comes from the dairy herd.

Good beef comes from older animals kept on grass,rather than 18 month beef fed on cereals.In grass-fed beef,the fat is much yellower in colour,as a result of colour picked up from the chlorophyll in grass.
Also,it is (was?) common to inject beef animals with growth hormones.

In this country,food is produced to an acceptable price,rather than an acceptable quality/flavour.

Andrew

 

[CHJ]

Whilst we are on the theme of Cows, Stroud/Cirencester area is a TB black spot in cattle for some reason, a Farmer local to Cirencester who runs an Organic milking herd has not had TB in his herd for 6 years whilst farms all around him continually get a positive test. (the positive test does not mean that the cow has it only that it has the antibody so is assumed to have been in contact with it.)

The only difference with his herd is that when he started to convert he noticed his organic beasts did not show a reaction whilst his normal ones being phased out still did on occasions. He concluded that it must be down to the different diet, he now feeds his herd a molasses supplement that ensures that the animals get sufficient selenium etc. in their diet so also does the local wildlife of badgers and deer as he put licks out for them to access.

The normal cattle were having their diet supplemented with sweetcorn to up the milk yield in low grass situations, and guess what, sweet corn is virtually free of essential minerals such as selenium so he has concluded that their immune system was degraded and hence susceptible to infections.

Guess what is still being planted in large quantities in the area for cattle feed!!!

 

[engineer one]

my feeling is that what we are trying to aim for when promoting any organics is less pesticide run off into the water table.

i am old enough to remember fallow fields and stock rotation,
now the normal farmers grow the same products in the same fields,
and replace the nutrients and nice things in the soil with pesticidesm, and kinds of food which often are complex compounds.

if we are to believe any of the global warming stories, and some i seriously doubt, then the over production of fertilisers and out products
from petroleum production has a really great impact.

the other thing about organics is that they cannot be transported very
far, so cut the costs, but make them more liable to early ruination.

so the choice is good looking foods which may be 6 months old
and have travelled round the world having been grown off season
and therefore forced, or smaller production organic products which are
grown down the road.

go to spain away from the resorts, and buy some tomatoes, they may be mis-shapen, but boy do they taste better than the ones under the plastic.

our food is really too cheap, because of production engineering,
so always organic food is going to look too expensive, but you can
only ramp up production so far before it has to be "engineered"

and, more worryingly some of the organic products come from
overseas where the production methods are not properly
organic, but the standards are lower, so who knows???

paul :wink:

 

[CHJ]

...snip...and, more worryingly some of the organic products come from overseas where the production methods are not properly organic, but the standards are lower, so who knows???

paul :wink:

Like Egyptian new potatoes that traditionally used the effluent waste from Cairo for fertilizer, Nice Brown humus rich soil, I wonder why.

And you thought that it was peat that they were transported in :wink: :lol: