Victor Socket Chisels or Kirschen 1101 Bevel Edge Chisels?

[Alf]

But BB, I have read all you have written, and I still say it ain't so with regard to chisels. The amount of raw stock to the amount of work involved between a plane blade and a socket bevel-edged chisel is going to have an effect on the price, no?

Cheers, Alf

Edit: To quote exactly what T L-N said, rather than put words in his mouth "However, there would be virtually no cost difference for us to make O-1 vs A-2 so I elected to choose A-2." There's no accounting for choice, as they say.

 

[Anonymous]

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[Mittlefehldt]

With regards to this thread the following quote is from the Lee Valley catalogue, and it hs been there for years, I am fairly sure that Leonard Lee himself may have written it, he tended to be outspoken, pity he doesn't hang about places like this. I should add that was written more than ten years ago if memory serves.


About Bevel-Edge Chisels



A chisel is not complex.

In today's world, it should not be difficult to use a suitable alloy, properly forge, harden, and grind it, and put a handle on straight. Nonetheless, it seems to be more than most current manufacturers can achieve.

Though some seem to feel that getting four of the five basics right is a good average, the bevel-edge chisels we offer typically meet all five basic criteria. (Sometimes the Marples have slight handle misalignments.)

 

[Shady]

shady and alf; please read all I wrote, not just the first sentence.

Sorry mate: your first sentence is absolutely clear to me:

The reason the LN's are expensive is ... A2.

I'm not trying to be funny, just to point out that it apparently is not, according to the bloke who makes and sells them, and according to a comparitive pricing of A2 and O1 steel out there in the market place... :?

I've been very careful throughout this thread to try and make it clear that I am not trying to attack anyone, and that I'm very happy that the price he charges reflects the cost of producing what is obviously a very good tool. I don't quite see the need for what appears to be a slightly 'snotty' response: if you meant something other than 'the reason is A2', perhaps you shouldn't have said it quite so emphatically.

If you are now trying to imply that the reason is the comparitive cost of working the material, as the rest of your post implies, well that still doesn't account for the relatively small disparity between A2 and O1 plane blades - or are we to believe that there's no tempering/working/grinding involved in a plane blade?

I'm going to go and grumble in a corner now...

 

[MikeW]

...
Re being rude about toolies' skills - sorry I only meant that if collecting is the priority then using is likely to be less so. (by definition)
Or to put it another way - a person owning 30 chisels would have to do 10 times as much work as a 3 chisel person, to get the same usage out of them. aotbe.
cheers
Jacob

No worries, Jacob...

I think that in part, at least for used chisels, it is easy to collect so many of the same pattern, duplicates in part, in purchasing a used set. The discipline comes in selling off what one doesn't need.

A favorite horse to kick on another forum purchased over 180 chisels in many small, different lots, in order to compose a good set. He was disciplned enough to sell off most that were not part of his user kit. And he is a user.

For me, following the theft of my tools and needing to get on with working, I opted for new. Of all the chisels I had, only one excaped being stolen. That was the Sandvik I mentioned earlier.

While I certainly don't use them all, all the time, the different patterns--in- and out-cannel, paring, bench, mortise, firmer, butt etc, do come in handy for their intended purposes. About the only exotic steel I would consider in a chisel is Ray's mortise chisels.

I think there are several reasons for pricing of Tom's chisels--or plane blades, etc. One reflects the cost of labor and materials. Another the cost of doing business today. Yet another meeting an intended profit structure to ensure a healthy business. One main difference between Tom and Rob in their pricing? Volume. The economy of scale is different between the two business.

As for Hock's pricing difference between A2/O1? I don't think it can be so neatly reduced to only raw materials and difference in heat treatment. While a difference in cost does account for perhaps a linear difference between the cost of both materials and heat treatments, it isn't that great as $7 per unit [assuming the same number of pieces of each go to the same heat treater]. Somewhere in there is meeting the expectation of the consumer that A2 is better and should be more costly.

Ok, off to work for me.
btw, I suspect the only chisels I'll use today were ones not in that picture <g>...to be precise, only 2 chisels from those little detail chisels available from Rob... :lol:

Take care, Mike

 

[Paul Chapman]

I mean, check out my offering here: http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Shady_on_Sharpening.htm

That chisel is still in use with me today - and took all of about ten minutes to get from 'throw away' to 'heirloom'....

Excellent result, Shady :wink:

Paul

 

[Mirboo]

In the meantime you may get hands on experience with all sorts of tools and decide at a later date that a set of Lee&Perrins finest is essential - but you will be making an informed decision.

What, once you decide you can't do woodwork and want to take up cooking. :lol:

For the benefit of Mr_Grimsdale:

A set of Lie-Nielsen bevel edge socket chisels. Can be used for doing woodwork.

A set of Stanley 750 socket chisels. This is the chisel upon which the Lie-Nielsen chisels were based. Can also be used for woodwork, although it doesn't look like this particular set did much.

Lea & Perrins finest. The label says "Adds Instant Richness" but nothing about handcut dovetails. :roll:

As an aside, the set of 10 Stanley 750 chisels pictured above was recently sold by Jon Zimmers, of Jon Zimmers Antique Tools, for US$1000. :shock: A set of 9 Lie-Nielsen chisels costs US$450 according to the Lie-Nielsen website. Gee I wish I could afford a set of old Stanley's. Ah well, I'll just have to be content with a few of the cheaper Lie-Nielsens. :wink:

 

[Alf]

Oh brother, now I've got a pressing desire for cheese on toast. #-o Remarkable set of Stanleys there - not surprised they went big

Or to put it another way - a person owning 30 chisels would have to do 10 times as much work as a 3 chisel person, to get the same usage out of them

Yeah, that's fair enough. Except there's every likelihood they use only a couple of them 90% of the time... :wink: Anyway, 30 chisels? That's not a collection; that's just a small accumulation.

Okay, how about we look at this another way? Rather than grumbling about particular brands, if you had the choice what would you actually want in a chisel? Maybe we can establish which currently made ones tick the maximum number of people's boxes. Not specialist chisels; just the ordinary sort you reach for all the time for all those various jobs.

Cheers, Alf

 

[MikeW]

...Okay, how about we look at this another way? Rather than grumbling about particular brands, if you had the choice what would you actually want in a chisel? Maybe we can establish which currently made ones tick the maximum number of people's boxes. Not specialist chisels; just the ordinary sort you reach for all the time for all those various jobs.

Cheers, Alf

I guess I don't get to vote :lol:

I mostly use paring chisels...are those specialist :wink:

How about we substitute 'bench' for the phrase "just the ordinary sort" as I think that would be what most people associate to "reach for all the time."

As well, they are what is mostly available in a wide range of price points...

Mike

 

[Mittlefehldt]

Okay, how about we look at this another way? Rather than grumbling about particular brands, if you had the choice what would you actually want in a chisel? Maybe we can establish which currently made ones tick the maximum number of people's boxes. Not specialist chisels; just the ordinary sort you reach for all the time for all those various jobs.

Cheers, Alf

Fair enough. I used to use a minimal set of the blue chip thingys but the would not stand up to daily use, and bent a bit in the middle. I have since aquired a lighter mallet.

I replaced them with a set of Narex chisels from the Chech republic and they seem fine to me and you can actually wack them a bit, but of course I don't, as I now have Hirsch mortise chisels for the real grunt work.

 

[Alf]

How about we substitute 'bench' for the phrase "just the ordinary sort" as I think that would be what most people associate to "reach for all the time."

Well I did, and then I predicted someone would start arguing about the semantics of the thing, so I changed it again. :roll: :lol: And yes, Mike, you get a vote 'cos you know jolly well what I meant

Ah, perhaps I should clarify. Not existing brands, just the features you'd wish to see. F'rinstance, my own wish list in order of preference would be something like:

O1 steel; fine side bevels; flat back; balanced feel (bit subjective, that one); wooden handle (with no hoops!) or better still sold without handles; blade length on the shorter side; capable of taking some light chopping; not polished; socket or tang, no preference.

As it happens one chisel already ticks all those boxes bar the important one... Anyway, you might want forged rather than cast perhaps, or purple plastic handles, or, well whatever.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Mirboo]

O1 steel; fine side bevels; flat back; balanced feel (bit subjective, that one); wooden handle or better still sold without handles; blade length on the shorter side; capable of taking some light chopping; not polished; socket or tang, no preference.

My preferred chisel would be pretty much along the lines of what you've already outlined Alf. Except I don't really care what steel it is. What do you think I am, a metallurgist or something. Well.... actually I am.

As far as the steel goes I just want something that will take and hold a good edge. It also needs to stand up to Aussie hardwoods.

 

[bugbear]

shady and alf; please read all I wrote, not just the first sentence.

Sorry mate: your first sentence is absolutely clear to me:

The reason the LN's are expensive is ... A2.

if you meant something other than 'the reason is A2', perhaps you shouldn't have said it quite so emphatically.

If you are now trying to imply that the reason is the comparitive cost of working the material, as the rest of your post implies, well that still doesn't account for the relatively small disparity between A2 and O1 plane blades - or are we to believe that there's no tempering/working/grinding involved in a plane blade?

Consider the first sentence a headline, and the rest the full story, just like a magazine article story.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

Edit: To quote exactly what T L-N said, rather than put words in his mouth "However, there would be virtually no cost difference for us to make O-1 vs A-2 so I elected to choose A-2." There's no accounting for choice, as they say.

That's MOST interesting;

(from memory I'm afraid) I thought he said that forging the socket was made more difficult by (the properties of) A2.

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't want anyone to get stroppy with anyone else - we're all here because of a genuine interest in tools, after all.

That's where I've been going wrong, I thought we were here because of a common interest in woodworking :roll: :wink:

Certainly for me, I love using tools to make furniture, however, the tools themselves, taken in isolation, hold no interest. The act of creatioin using them does.

 

[Alf]

I wouldn't want anyone to get stroppy with anyone else - we're all here because of a genuine interest in tools, after all.

That's where I've been going wrong, I thought we were here because of a common interest in woodworking :roll: :wink:

Ah, did you not see the notice on the door as you came in? Doesn't say anything about using them... Woodworking's one floor up :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

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[Mirboo]

Didn't know they made sauce!

Really? :roll: I assumed you did and was just trying to inject a bit of humour into the discussion. :wink:

One thing that's certain is that they do a brilliant marketing job. Here we all are talking about tools which few of us own, cost a bomb, and nobody needs!

Of course we are going to talk about them. We are into hand tools and the Lie-Nielsen stuff is at the top end of what is currently being produced. Do you think car enthusiasts would avoid talking about Ferraris and Bugattis. Not many are ever going to own one but I bet they still talk about them.

 

[MikeW]

...Here we all are talking about tools which few of us own, cost a bomb, and nobody needs!

Well then, here are two people certainly don't need...

:lol:

On a "serious" note, if one is going to work wood one does need, well, tools, eh?

Where we each draw the line between good enough and extravagant is a personal decision. Hopefully an educated one. Which is what talking about tools is good for.

Take care, Mike

 

[MikeW]

How about we substitute 'bench' for the phrase "just the ordinary sort" as I think that would be what most people associate to "reach for all the time."

Well I did, and then I predicted someone would start arguing about the semantics of the thing, so I changed it again. :roll: :lol: And yes, Mike, you get a vote 'cos you know jolly well what I meant
...

Hah, a bit of silliness was called for.

I think the list is good as Alf wrote it:

O1 steel; fine side bevels; flat back; balanced feel (bit subjective, that one); wooden handle (with no hoops!) or better still sold without handles; blade length on the shorter side; capable of taking some light chopping; not polished; socket or tang, no preference.

I would personally choose a tang chisel over the socket for a bench chisel, though. It's what I am use to and seems one can play around pretty easy with different handle styles.

Take care, Mike