Very very Nice Bling Safe Sliding Saw by Altendorf.

[Spectric]

You have given a good example there, ABS was developed to deliver safer braking abilities to the masses. The professional driver could achieve the same but your average joe would stand on that brake pedal for dear life and just slide into whatever when the pro driver knew to not lock the wheels and have confidence to use cadence braking technique.

 

[Agent_zed]

invisable protective barriers

aren't we talking about an 'invisible barrier' system?

 

[Doug71]

The issue we face today is that to many people cannot take responsability for their actions and will always look for a 3rd party to lay blame and then we also have this culture of making money with the legal system. We live in a world where we try and wrap everything up in cotton wool which starts from day 1, a good example is the kids playground where there are safe surfaces and safe everything so unlike previous generations where we grew up knowing our vunerabilities they are now isolated from this experience. Later in life they get a job but expect there employer to be there protector who can only do so much and cannot protect people from themselves so when faced with using machinery where they have been taught and trained there attitude is just way off.

I used to be involved in an off licence business and we had a claim made against us by one of the employees.

She was restocking one of the wine shelves when she caught the edge of a shelf with a bottle, the bottle broke and cut her hand (probably rushing as last job of the day before she went home), she got quite a few thousand pounds out of it Basically her claim was successful as we had no written procedure in place on how to put a bottle on a shelf Luckily our insurance paid for it all but the premium did go up.

I really don't know how anyone dare employ people in a workshop environment these days, so much that can go wrong.

 

[deema]

This is worth a watch, just before you go into the shop



For a commercial shop, to not buy a saw with such a safety device I think would be a very poor decision. Why, well, the stats are clear that the circular saw is one of the most frequent causes of serious injury, so on your risk assessment it’s going to be one of those flagged for risk mitigation. The actual cost of the saw would not be seen as any reason not to buy one, it’s not outrageous expensive, and can probably be financed. So, assuming it’s not a start up company and has a good trading record, there is little to suggest say (I’m guessing) a £10K premium isn’t a barrier to having such a device. After all, if you are found guilty of a H&S breach for not reducing as far as reasonably practicable the risk, you face a few nights in the metal hotel worst case, or a serious raid on your finances best case.

For me, I would not want to think I’d contributed to a series injury for a lack of investment over something I knew was a major risk and I hadn’t done everything I could to mitigate it.

After all as an example Jimmy DiResta a fairly well known uTuber managed to cut off his little finger on a table saw whilst using push sticks!



I don’t run a commercial shop, mine is a hobby shop. If they put the technology on a saw that met my needs (a full slider doesn’t) would I buy it? Yes in a heart beat, once necessary pennies saved up. I don’t like the saw stop system, I understand technically how it works, and it’s not something I’d positive decide to purchase.

 

[Agent_zed]

The advantage over this system seems to be that it is non-destructive so you just reset and off you go. I guess that could be seen as a disadvantage to some if you argue the point that it doesn't have any consequences. Perhaps (I think someone already mentioned) a system where it requires a manager to reset and/or logs the incident against a user so the company can decide to implement additional training etc would be good. I'd rather get a good telling off than a trip to A+E. A company could easily put into place a 1st time it's additional training, 2nd time you are out the door policy.

I guess this is where sawstop is good in some respects as I would imagine it scares the hell out of you when its put into action and you can't hide that it's been triggered.

With either system though I would still be of the mind that it is a final attempt at stopping injury, not a reason to think it's ok to put my hand into a spinning blade. Same with airbags in a car. I don't just drive around thinking it's not a problem if I have a head on collision, i have no desire to test the system.

 

[Kayen]

This is worth a watch, just before you go into the shop



For a commercial shop, to not buy a saw with such a safety device I think would be a very poor decision. Why, well, the stats are clear that the circular saw is one of the most frequent causes of serious injury, so on your risk assessment it’s going to be one of those flagged for risk mitigation. The actual cost of the saw would not be seen as any reason not to buy one, it’s not outrageous expensive, and can probably be financed. So, assuming it’s not a start up company and has a good trading record, there is little to suggest say (I’m guessing) a £10K premium isn’t a barrier to having such a device. After all, if you are found guilty of a H&S breach for not reducing as far as reasonably practicable the risk, you face a few nights in the metal hotel worst case, or a serious raid on your finances best case.

For me, I would not want to think I’d contributed to a series injury for a lack of investment over something I knew was a major risk and I hadn’t done everything I could to mitigate it.

After all as an example Jimmy DiResta a fairly well known uTuber managed to cut off his little finger on a table saw whilst using push sticks!



I don’t run a commercial shop, mine is a hobby shop. If they put the technology on a saw that met my needs (a full slider doesn’t) would I buy it? Yes in a heart beat. I don’t like the saw stop system, I understand technically how it works, and it’s not something I’d positive decide to purchase.

I reckon YouTubers have a fairly high accident rate because they're thinking more about whether the camera is getting the best shot rather than thinking exclusively about what they're doing.

I've had over 40 years in commercial wood shops, a couple of them large companies with over twenty guys working and with a very high turnover of makers coming and going, and have never seen an accident (of any serious degree), apart from one guy that suffered burns in his nasal passages from Rosewood dust!

Training is important but understanding is what counts the most, IMO, knowing that you're doing something wrong, realising you're not fully focused or just plain pushing your luck counts for a lot, rather than ignorant bliss which leads to the bulk of accidents. Machines are consistent - if you do what you're supposed to do, so do they.

 

[Jacob]

.......

After all as an example Jimmy DiResta a fairly well known uTuber managed to cut off his little finger on a table saw whilst using push sticks!


....

Doesn't say anything about him using push sticks when he got his cut unless I missed a bit.
Does show some fairly inadequate push sticks at the end - and that boot shape grabber which takes your hand close to and past the blade, a very bad design.
Amazingly it shows people using saws without crown guards or push sticks and their fingers very close, as though it's normal!!
In fact it is normal in USA - they are insane. This accounts for the high USA accident rate, no need to look any further!
OK so if they are brain dead and can't improve their act the poor things should have saw-stop etc.
PS the "standard" push stick has quite a wide mouth and functions like the boot shape (as above) but with a long handle and your fingers further away.

This is safe. Might use two push sticks if left hand any closer on a shorter piece or bit of board etc.

 

[Jacob]

......, the stats are clear that the circular saw is one of the most frequent causes of serious injury, ....

In USA undoubtedly, but what are the figures in UK?
We have HSE advice, generally very good, not compulsory but strongly advised in terms of liability etc, and we have crown guards on riving knives as normal. HSE makes no mention of saw stop or anything like it.
This whole thread confuses very poor USA practice with much safer UK practice.

 

[loftyhermes]

So why don't they just fit power feeds to these machines?

 

[Jacob]

So why don't they just fit power feeds to these machines?

Good idea! Much cheaper, better outcomes and completely hands off.

 

[Nelsun]

Doesn't say anything about him using push sticks when he got his cut unless I missed a bit.

You didn't pay attention or skipped some key information... that's how accidents can happen. He was raising the blade [whilst switched on]. A bit tricky to do that with push sticks... even for you.

 

[Jacob]

You didn't pay attention or skipped some key information... that's how accidents can happen. He was raising the blade [whilst switched on]. A bit tricky to do that with push sticks... even for you.

A really stupid thing to do and also not having a crown guard, which seems to be USA fashion.
The thing about push sticks is that they become second nature and you become very aware of being too near a cutter, whether or not you are actually holding them at the time, even if it's switched off. There's psychology in it - heightened awareness somehow. Like driving a car without safety belts - an inner alarm goes off and everybody clips in more or less automatically without giving it a thought.
It doesn't take long to pick up the habit.
It's a bit odd having to explain to people that they need to keep their hands away from the cutter - but it doesn't help seeing so many videos where people risk serious injury in one video after another, as though it's normal!

PS just googled youtube "using a table saw" and this turns up top of the list!!



Another American using a saw without a riving knife, or with one but without a crown guard.
Worst of all - without push sticks - pushing the workpiece through with his bare hands. All set up for a nasty accident simply waiting to happen!
This chap needs saw-stop urgently, or could save a fortune by getting a bit of quality safety training, which seems like a very un-American thing to do!


PPS This is better.
This chap doesn't need a saw-stop.
He uses hands but only when well away from the blade

 

[Spectric]

Good idea! Much cheaper, better outcomes and completely hands off.

Surely hands off is what we are trying to avoid !