Veneering advice please

[wellywood]

SWMBO wants me to refinish an old Singer machine table. The original had a swing-out machine which will be removed, the opening filled and the top refinished as a flat surface and re-veneered. Some of the existing veneer is lifting at the edges due to water damage at some time. The lifting only extends about 50 mm in from the edge and everywhere else the veneer seems firmly fixed.
I've only done one veneer project before so my question is, can I re-fix the lifting portions of the veneer then sand clean the whole surface and re-veneer over the top or should I bite the bullet and strip the old veneer completely? The picture shows the area on the extreme right where the veneer is lifting.

 

[Scoffy]

Can you not just re-stick the bit thats lifting? Put some thick brown paper on and the run a hot iron over to melt the glue, and just use a roller to push it down firm, its difficult to tell from the photo but it looks as though some light sanding would bring the veneer colour back. Good luck with it anyway, it looks a nice piece.

 

[wellywood]

Scoffy. As near as I can determine the piece is almost 100 years old and the veneering is original so I wouldn't be confident about re-activating the original adhesive. Also, the veneer is very badly stained and appears in one area at least to have been burned (*** end?) What would be the best modern adhesive to use to re-stick the lifting veneer if that's an option?

 

[RogerS]

Chances are that if it is that old then the adhesive will be traditional hide glue. If so just run that iron over it. One of the advantages of hide glue.

 

[Scoffy]

Hi wellywood, as RogerS said, hide glue would have been used, but if you don't think there is any there then run the iron over and gently lift the veneer to where the glue is secure, then place some 'glue film' on the exposed area and iron it all back down again. As for the stains and burn, these things are the pieces legend and should (IMHO) be preserved. I would be interested to know how you get on with this.

 

[wellywood]

OK. Question 2. Having gone against all the advice to retain the existing veneer finish (it really was in appalling condition - besides SWMBO wanted something neat and clean - dunno why she married me in that case) I have stripped off the old veneer quite easily as it was virtually falling off anyway.
I used the brown paper/hot iron method to loosen it and there was a distinct odour as the iron softened the finish as well.

Now we come to the question. As you can see from the pic the veneer is oak and the original colour is shown on the left with the finished colour on the right. My question is, what are they likely to have used as a finish remembering that the piece is ca. 1925 and the finish is (I believe) original?

I don't believe they would have used a stain so is it likely to be shellac? Boiled linseed oil? Or what?

Suggestions on a postcard c/o The Betty Ford Clinic...

 

[marcros]

I would have thought probably a stain and a lacquer. There is a way of working it out which I forget but have in a book. One part of the test is to rub a bit of meths on the scrap veneer. If the finish lifts, it is shellac. I doubt it will be though, it wouldn't be hard enough for that. Then IIRC, you try a celluloid thinners- if that removes it it is a cellulose based lacquer. Can you scrape anything off the scrap veneer that would suggest a film forming finish- I guess a white dust?

 

[carlb40]

I would have thought probably a stain and a lacquer. There is a way of working it out which I forget but have in a book. One part of the test is to rub a bit of meths on the scrap veneer. If the finish lifts, it is shellac. I doubt it will be though, it wouldn't be hard enough for that. Then IIRC, you try a celluloid thinners- if that removes it it is a cellulose based lacquer. Can you scrape anything off the scrap veneer that would suggest a film forming finish- I guess a white dust?

I think i read something like that last year.

Don't you start with the weakest option first ie water. Then meths. ( shellac) as said. Then turps/ white spirit for an oil based finish.?

 

[RogerS]

Yes. I posted this...

I recently came across this excellent guide in Ian Hosker's book ...Complete Woodfinishing..which to my mind is one of the best books on finishing I've come across...very modern and up-to-date.

It's a 5 step process to identify the finish

1 Does the finish soften with Meths FRENCH POLISH OR SPIRIT VARNISH
Not softened ...go to Step 2

2 Does the finish soften with white spirit ...yes go to step 3
Not softened ...go to step 4

3 Does the finish feel waxy and smears when rubbed with a finger; will scrape off when scratched with a finger.....WAX
Surface feels oily smooth but will not smear or scrape off with fingernail OIL

4 If scraped with blade of sharp knife, finish will produce tiny flakes with some dust POLYURETHANR VARNISH
If scraped with blade of sharp knife, finish produces a white dust Go to 5

5 Will soften with cellulose thinners NITROCELLULOSE LACQUER
Will not soften with cellulose thinners CATALYSED LACQUER

 

[AndyT]

It may be a bit late to suggest it, but have a look at Stephen Shepherd's blog, where he describes a very similar job in helpful detail - http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=3072

My guess for making the oak go dark brown would be Van **** crystals - you mix them up in hot water, dilute if needed and brush or wipe on. Repeat if needed. A very trad stain and quite forgiving in use.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

+1 for Van **** brown being the colour....very widely used during that era and still inexpensive to buy from decent finishing suppliers. I've even got a feeling Axy carry it. Failing that, artist suppliers as its often used in painting as a brown pigment for trees, mountains etc.

 

[wellywood]

Thanks to all for the advice. Roger, I'll try the step-by-step process and see what happens. AndyT/Bob, thanks for the tip about the Van **** crystals, that makes sense to me given the age of the piece. The original veneer is what I believe is called 'tiger' oak with a distinctive stripe which 'popped' when darkened - the only reason I can see for changing its colour.

I guess I'll have to turn this thread into a WIP. Stand by for more.

 

[Scoffy]

Hi , a little trick I use to age Oak is to spray on some oven cleaner (Mr Muscle is what I use) leave for around 10 mins then wash off - bingo! dark Oak. Another alternative is to 'fume' tha Oak with Amonia, put the piece in a plastic tent with a saucer of Amonia, leave overnight and again - bingo. I would then finnish the piece with Button polish. Hope this helps.