Unusual Mathieson tool......

[Bedrock]

Andy
Thanks for the welcome and the speedy advice. As these floats are about 3/4" wide, does the width make any difference to sharpening. Logic might dictate not, but as purchased there is no relief behind the cutting edges.

Mike

 

[AndyT]

No idea I'm afraid - I don't have any floats - but someone else will know!

 

[Argus]

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Sadly, this has gone way off-topic.

These latest plane makers floats bear no resemblance to the type of 'float' that started this all off............. and the original query as to whether they were intended to cut wood or the design intended to form a shape in something other than wood............

.

 

[AndyT]

.

Sadly, this has gone way off-topic.

These latest plane makers floats bear no resemblance to the type of 'float' that started this all off............. and the original query as to whether they were intended to cut wood or the design intended to form a shape in something other than wood............

.

I don't agree with 'sadly'. It would be different if it was a new thread and the digression stopped the original poster's question being answered but when a new member chimes in on an old thread it usefully shows that they have read that thread (so nobody needs to repeat anything in it) and implies evidence that a search for the topic in question has brought a new enthusiast into the forum.

 

[MIGNAL]

Two schools of thought: one for working horn (from an old thread that I remember well):

about-time-we-had-a-mystery-tool-t16277-30.html

. . . and the Cabinet makers float:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/stor ... %20Shapers

Except they don't work as a cabinet makers float. Nor do I think that they are that rare. This same tool has appeared on this forum a few times. There are also other makers besides Mathieson.
Take your pick: wood or horn, maybe both.

 

[Bedrock]

Argus
Not sure what the stress here is. The 3 tools I have are almost identical to the original post, one is flat, the other two hollow. Like you, I have found that they don't seem to achieve much, as bought, hence my questions as to how to sharpen, and whether anyone knows what the theory of the cutting action might be, which might give an insight as to how they are best sharpened and used. If as has been suggested, they can be used for flattening/finishing with and across the grain, and actually are for gunstock making, in my limited knowledge of that world, the preferred timber is burr walnut. That would suggest that they could have useful applications in my pastime of furniture and toolmaking. They were bought on a whim when no-one else was in the saleroom was interested, but they are interesting, and potentially useful, not for decoration.
I have enough conflict in my working life without going in search of it in my leisure time.

Regards Mike

 

[jimi43]

These things are definitely not wood floats...planemaker's floats or any other wooden floats.

I am convinced these are used in lead forming from the old days of lead piping to size the raw pipes for fitting into couplings.

They are not sharp...to sharpen (which I don't think would have been necessary), you can only do this by facing off the exposed face so that it moves downwards towards the flatter part of the indentations thus producing a 90 degree "sharp" edge. The same sort of sharp you get when you face off two edges of wood and the point at which they meet can then cut you.

I would love to be proven wrong though! I have two sitting there doing nothing!

Jim

 

[n0legs]

These things are definitely not wood floats...planemaker's floats or any other wooden floats.

I am convinced these are used in lead forming from the old days of lead piping to size the raw pipes for fitting into couplings.

They are not sharp...to sharpen (which I don't think would have been necessary), you can only do this by facing off the exposed face so that it moves downwards towards the flatter part of the indentations thus producing a 90 degree "sharp" edge. The same sort of sharp you get when you face off two edges of wood and the point at which they meet can then cut you.

I would love to be proven wrong though! I have two sitting there doing nothing!

Jim

My trade used to be called "Electrical Plumber" many moons ago due to the amount of lead plumbing and soldering work we used to do on the old cables, that were either steel tape armoured or steel wire armoured over a lead inner sheath then insulation then obviously the cores/conductors.
When I was an apprentice we used all the tools an old school plumber would have used, many supplied by Frys the solder makers and some by Footprint, various other tools were in our kit and it's a long time ago now so can't remember who made what exactly.
The tool I think you mean is one I know as a skiving tool. It did look sort of similar and was used as you say for preparation and reduction of diameter of lead sheath/pipes for joining purposes. However due to the fact we were a nationalised company we did have a lot of pull and could get tools made and altered to suit our specific use for them.
I may be wrong, just my opinion.

 

[AndyT]

Ok, this may be relevant to some people, irrelevant to others but here goes.

I just remembered another place to look for information on various floats, what they were used for and how they were sharpened.

Back in 1847 Charles Holzapffel, maker of ornamental lathes and fine tools, published the first volume of what was going to be a six volume survey of materials and how they could be worked. Confusingly, the overall title of the series was "Turning and Mechanical Manipulation" - maybe so people who bought his lathes would buy his books - but the scope was always wide. Volume 2 covers all types of hand and machine cutting tools, including saws, planes, files etc. The series contains an extraordinary range of practical detail on how tools were made and used.

Charles died before completing the project, but his son John Jacob published volumes 4 and 5. Volume 6, which would have covered metalwork, never appeared. Original copies are costly but there have been various cheap reprints. Happily, volumes 1 to 4 are available as free pdfs to download from the wonderful "Masters' Library" at WK Fine Tools - http://www.wkfinetools.com/mLibrary/mLibrary_index-1.asp

Delving into Volume 2, chapter XXVIII on Files includes section 2 on 'files of less usual kinds' including 'floats or single cut files used for ivory, horn and tortoiseshell.'

Illustrations show the planemaker's style of float, with its broad triangular section teeth, and do not show the 'Toblerone' style with separate teeth, but his remarks on sharpening tell us this - I'm summarising to keep it brief:

- Before sharpening, some floats need to be softened by heating so that they can be filed, then tempered again before use.
- Some floats are sharpened by raising a burr on each tooth, using a burnisher, as you would do on a cabinet scraper.

So just possibly, the separate-toothed floats would also need a burr on each tooth before they will work.

Whether that's true or not, I recommend the books for an insight into all sorts of byways - where else can you learn about the 'quannet' or 'White's perpetual file'?

 

[MMUK]

It's just come to me! I've seen farriers using tools similar to these to file horses hooves. Maybe this is what they are?

 

[jimi43]

I think that is highly possible...and it would have to be something that created a fair amount of "shavings" because of the huge lands between the "teeth"

Jimi

 

[MIGNAL]

There is/was a similar type tool that I saw in a book on archery bow making. If you imagine a series of Stanley type blades placed into a wooden holder you'll get the idea. Not sure if it was a traditional tool or something that the author had come up with.
Putting a burr on the Toblerone tool does seem to make sense. That might actually make them work. I suppose if Mathieson originally called these 'Cabinet makers floats', that's what they must be. It would be surprising if the makers of the actual tool didn't know of their purpose! Of course that would not necessarily stop other trades using them.

 

[Bedrock]

I think I will continue to file a clearance angle behind the cutting edge of each Toblerone, and see whether that makes a difference. The steel is not so hard that it can't be filed with a standard file, so either it has been annealed to take the hardness out, or perhaps it was designed for use on softer materials than hardwood.
I mentioned the maker's name - G. Tummon- in the hope that a tool historian might know whether that Sheffield tool maker specialised in any particular trade.
So far sharpening practice has been on the flat float. The idea of producing a clearance angle on a hollow section defeats me at the moment, but may be an indication that was never the intention.

Regards Mike

 

[AndyT]

I fear we may all be going round in circles here, but Bedrock, do your tools look like this?

If so, David Stanley thought they were gunstocker's floats according to this record of a sale in 2009 http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...ley-auctions/catalogue-id-2746803/lot-6774910

Maybe they are a special sort of tool, with no practical use except for selling and re-selling at auction!

 

[MIGNAL]

And they came flat, convex, concave and now curved. :?

 

[Bedrock]

Andy
No, much like Argus' original post and Mignal's photo yesterday.

Mike