Toning down colour variations in new raw Walnut worktops.

[Pilchard]

Hi all.
Am new here & this'll be my first post.
Am looking for advice regarding colouring (stain, dye, whatever) some new Full-Stave Black American Walnut kitchen worktops I've bought for the uber-chic German style kitchen I've been building for our home.. It's most probable, as it's an easy finish to maintain, that I'll Danish Oil or Tung Oil them after colouring... but am open to suggestions.
Am after a lovely mid brown smokey tobacco colour, and I even have a link to a website called woodworkerssource... which I'm not yet allowed to post on here as I'm new. But the colour isn't the key thing here, it's what kind of colouring medium... water, oil, spirit based, gel, etc etc... choice seems endless..., what application techniques, and how to tone down the naturally occuring colour variations in the untreated timber..
These worktops are so expensive, I'm paranoid I'll make a hash and end up with them looking grim, dark and blotchy. Although I've plenty of joinery and cabinetmaking experience, I've precious little with staining.
These 11-18cm wide stave walnut worktops have a bit of paler sapwood here and there and, inevitably, the worst of it is virtually a full 2.4 metre strip taking up the entire width of one of the staves, glue-line to glue-line, of the main worktop... a 2.4 metre by 80cm peninsular.
I don't want to completely obliterate the tonal variations between heart-wood and sap-wood, but I do want to mellow the difference down to just 1, 2 or 3 shades rather than a dozen or so. Just enough to blend that pale stripe and stop it shouting out.
From a quick look on one American site in particular, it looks like it may be possible to blend it in without resorting to concentrating on using a darker tone on the sap and lighter tone on the heartwood. Something that'll maybe naturally take more to the the paler sap than than the more dense heartwood.... ????
I lack the knowledge, experience and confidence, so all advice, links and pointers gratefully recieved.
John

 

[custard]

What aspect is your kitchen, North, West facing etc? Does your worktop receive direct sun?

 

[Pilchard]

Thanks for replying.
Am aware of the need for UV resistance Custard, especially as Walnut has a reputation for fading to an unwelcome gold colour. So yes, the stain/dye/whatever needs to be UV resistant.
But to answer your question...
The room has both a south facing window (approx 1.8m wide by 1.0m high) and a north facing window (approx 2.3m by 1.3m) a bit over 7m away.
The south facing window has a custom fabricated Stainless Steel sink/drainer unit occupying the full window width, set back into the reveal. A short 0.5 x 0.4 deep piece of walnut to its left, then turning 90degrees left a 2.3 x 0.65 walnut top with hob, then turning left again by 90 degrees a 2.4m x 0.8m peninsular butted against the front of the hob run. Result is the peninsular, albeit 2metres away from it, will be parallel to that south facing window. As window head is 1.8m from floor (so relatively low), there will be no direct sun in summer months, but some in winter when angle of sun is lower.
Sorry, it's a way too detailed reply.

 

[skipdiver]

Danish oil is so yesterday. Everyone seems to be using Osmo now.

 

[Pilchard]

The stuff looks interesting skippie but Osmo claims no UV resistance for any of their products.
Am interested enough in the Polyx Oil Tints to order a few small samples though.
Can anyone coment on it's resistance to fading?

 

[skipdiver]

The stuff looks interesting skippie but Osmo claims no UV resistance for any of their products.
Am interested enough in the Polyx Oil Tints to order a few small samples though.
Can anyone coment on it's resistance to fading?

I'm a recent convert to Osmo and have so far only used it on a couple of small jobs, so i'm no expert. I know they do a formula for worktops and there is a recent thread about Danish Oil that has references to Osmo Polyx. Someone more knowledgeable on the product will reply at some point.

 

[Harbo]

There's been a lot of posts recently on wooden kitchen worktops and Osmo seems to be the favourite choice.
I've no experience myself of it in that situation but have used it on other stuff.
For kitchens I like granite [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]

Rod

 

[katellwood]

The stuff looks interesting skippie but Osmo claims no UV resistance for any of their products.
Am interested enough in the Polyx Oil Tints to order a few small samples though.
Can anyone coment on it's resistance to fading?

http://www.osmouk.com/sitechaptern.cfm? ... 2&page=262

used this on an oak front door south facing approx three years ago

no fading

 

[ED65]

If you want really dependable long-term colourfastness there's really only one option, and that's something coloured with pigment. And in stains that means an oil stain. Water-based and alcohol-based stains are dye based and are subject to one degree of fading or another. With a pigmented product you don't have to worry about UV-resistant topcoats because the UV resistance is built in.

Oil stain and pigmented varnishes (e.g. "gel stain") tend to obscure grain a lot more in case this is an issue, but they can equalise colour variations board to board better as a result although they won't hide ABW sapwood from the heartwood.

As for your final finish, personally I wouldn't go with Danish oil, partly because it's a very unknown quantity. Although they're widely known to commonly be a diluted mixture of oil and varnish the product name means nothing specific and as a result what's in the tin can be anything the manufacturer decides. So to say they vary would be an understatement, hence some are much less water-resistant than others; sometimes outright (higher oil percentage, less varnish) and sometimes for a given number of coats (diluted more). These are partly responsible for the very mixed bag of user experiences you'll read in the recent thread mentioned above, and elsewhere.

 

[custard]

Firstly, avoid pigment stains like the plague, certainly when it comes to colouring Walnut sap. The reason is that Walnut has a very open grain and the pigment will tend to gather in the grain and get wiped away from the surrounding surface, so you'll end up with a very grubby, pockmarked effect. There is a role for pigment stain with Walnut, but only when the grain's largely been filled and you're blending pigment in with shellac, which isn't something on your agenda.

You're fortunate, you're not getting the direct rays of summer sun on the workpiece for an extended period each day. That gives you a lot more latitude.

There are many alternative solutions, but the way I'd go about this is to start with a weak solution of a Black Walnut aniline water dye and coat the entire work surface. You have a choice between spirit soluble dye which is often called "light fast" and water soluble dye which is generally regarded as less colour fast. But here's the reality, the spirit dye is a tiny bit more light fast by an almost imperceptible degree, but it's way harder to apply on bigger projects as you absolutely must keep a wet edge throughout or you'll get tide marks. Your choice, but unless you're fairly slick I'd recommend water based not spirit based. Water based is much slower drying, so maintaining that crucial wet edge is a breeze. Gently knock off any raised grain with some well worn 240 grit or 360 grit.

Then apply a second weak solution across the entire piece, but while it's still slightly damp apply a stronger solution just on the sap, blending in the colour like it's a watercolour painting. Repeat on the sap until you've toned down the colour difference to your satisfaction. Let it dry and again very very lightly sand to remove any raised whiskers of grain.

I'd then suggest a finishing coat of General Finishes oil based Gel Stain across the entire piece, they do an antique Walnut which avoids the warmer tones of most of their range.

http://www.generalfinishes.co.uk/index. ... ore&CID=12

This is a finishing regime I've used successfully on English Walnut to blend in sap and I see no reason it wouldn't be equally successful on American Black Walnut, but as always try the entire process out first on some scrap.

In the future I may experiment with substituting Osmo products (tinted and UV resistant) for the second stage, but so far I haven't done this on Walnut where as I have done the regime outlined above so I know it works.

Good luck!

 

[Pilchard]

Christ!!! Too much superb info to immediately absorb and think through with limited grey matter... so no comments at the moment other than... thanks very much.
Keep them coming though... you can never be too well informed.
Urgent distractions are keeping me off the job and it'll be at least a few more days before I need to decide on products, get them in, and start practising in ernest; plus I have acres of worktop underside to experiment on.

 

[Pilchard]

OK... so I'm back on the job now. The wife insisted I pack it in so we could be free of all the disruption over Cristmas & New Year, and then we spent a little time away... so raring to go again.
I'd already got some samples from Wood Finishes Direct of Manns Brown water based wood dye, some Osmo Polyx Hardwax Oil in Clear 3065, Honey 3071, Amber 3072, Terra 3073... and a Fiddes Hard Wax Oil - Walnut.

By the way, here's that link to the kinds of tones I was looking for.https://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/ ... on-walnut/
An american site, so none of those products available here.

So I tried:-
The Manns Brown, 1:1 dilution with water... two coats, excess wiped away, feathering extra on sapwood on second coat, & sanded after each. Although it went on frighteningly dark, it dried paler... bit much too dark I though.
So I cut the Manns down to 1:4 and did as above. Again, dark when wet but dried paler... much paler ths time... almost a mucky yellow, especially on the sapwood... making me think I need a little less dilution but also a wood dye colour with a little more warmth. I suppose I could order samples of the Manns WBWD in orange or red and add a dash of one or the other to a slightly stronger version (1:2 or 3) of the Brown. Or just try a different brand. Any suggestions?

Anyway, as I didn't have any Gel Stain to hand, I tried test spots with the 4 different Osmos & the Fiddes. So far, I'm feeling happiest with the Osmo Amber or Honey. Maybe a warmer water based wood dye would work better under one of these.
If I were to use the Osmo Polyx Hardwax Oil for my second colouring process, after the water-based dye, once I've achieved the desired colour, I presume I could just build up my final finish with successive coats of the same product in a clear finish. Comments?

Am keen to try Custards recommendation with the Gel Stain though. Does anywhere sell a decent colour/quality range in samples or smaller units than pints?
Remembering that it's a kitchen worktop, what kind of finish is best over the Gel Stain?

Quite a few questions buried here, and I appreciate that colour and tone are purely personal preferences, but any advice, opinions & recommendations gladly recieved.

 

[custard]

OK... so I'm back on the job now. The wife insisted I pack it in so we could be free of all the disruption over Cristmas & New Year, and then we spent a little time away... so raring to go again.
I'd already got some samples from Wood Finishes Direct of Manns Brown water based wood dye, some Osmo Polyx Hardwax Oil in Clear 3065, Honey 3071, Amber 3072, Terra 3073... and a Fiddes Hard Wax Oil - Walnut.

By the way, here's that link to the kinds of tones I was looking for.https://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/ ... on-walnut/
An american site, so none of those products available here.

So I tried:-
The Manns Brown, 1:1 dilution with water... two coats, excess wiped away, feathering extra on sapwood on second coat, & sanded after each. Although it went on frighteningly dark, it dried paler... bit much too dark I though.
So I cut the Manns down to 1:4 and did as above. Again, dark when wet but dried paler... much paler ths time... almost a mucky yellow, especially on the sapwood... making me think I need a little less dilution but also a wood dye colour with a little more warmth. I suppose I could order samples of the Manns WBWD in orange or red and add a dash of one or the other to a slightly stronger version (1:2 or 3) of the Brown. Or just try a different brand. Any suggestions?

Be careful, the defining characteristic of Walnut is its cool tone, warm it up too much and it's just not Walnut anymore.

Anyway, as I didn't have any Gel Stain to hand, I tried test spots with the 4 different Osmos & the Fiddes. So far, I'm feeling happiest with the Osmo Amber or Honey. Maybe a warmer water based wood dye would work better under one of these.
If I were to use the Osmo Polyx Hardwax Oil for my second colouring process, after the water-based dye, once I've achieved the desired colour, I presume I could just build up my final finish with successive coats of the same product in a clear finish. Comments?

Yes, Osmo say two coats but I normally use three, beyond that I don't see much difference.

Am keen to try Custards recommendation with the Gel Stain though. Does anywhere sell a decent colour/quality range in samples or smaller units than pints?
Remembering that it's a kitchen worktop, what kind of finish is best over the Gel Stain?

If you're talking General Finishes then they make some good compatible final finishes. I have used Osmo over a gel stain without problems but maybe I got lucky. Test first on off-cuts. And if you go the General Finishes route then call them for their advice, they're the real experts and I've found most manufacturers are very helpful with technical support.

Quite a few questions buried here, and I appreciate that colour and tone are purely personal preferences, but any advice, opinions & recommendations gladly recieved.

 

[Pilchard]

Thanks for that Custard.
I was only thinking just a teeeensy little bit of warmth in the walnut colour, but wouldn't do it 'till I've done some large-scale testing... after all, I do have acres of underside of the worktop, and they'll need treating anyway to balance them up.

Also... I found this General Finishes video that others might find useful. As the lady sez... Easy-Peasy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL7f ... GMJWz3mnEo

 

[Pilchard]

Oh, that's something I forgot to mention..... a single coat of rubbed down sanding sealer after the water dye is flattened... good ideaor not?
A quick video below showing this process (including the sanding sealer)... and lovely colours, from same timber I'm using.
http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/w ... in-walnut/

 

[custard]

Oh, that's something I forgot to mention..... a single coat of rubbed down sanding sealer after the water dye is flattened... good ideaor not?

In some respects that's a really old school approach to finishing. In the late 70's and early 80's when I was first taught furniture making the craft was closely allied to antique restoration, it was common practise then to isolate each step in the colouring process with a quick coat of shellac. As a strategy it has much to recommend it, but sanding sealers are much softer due to all the stearates they usually contain, so for a work surface I'd avoid it.

 

[Pilchard]

So...
I got in touch with General Finishes and was told that I should not put an oil finish, any brand of oil finish, over their GelStain, because they are incompatible and the oil finish would bubble and lift, and that I should only use their own finishing coat.
Pity, because I've always wanted an oiled finish.
As I already had some samples of the Osmo Poyx, and found they were giving pretty good results over the Manns Brown wood dye, I decided to shelve the idea of using the GelStain.
As I refined my testing & moved on to larger test areas I've found that, on this Black American Walnut, my worries about lack of warmth were unfounded... so the little sample pot of Manns Orange Wood Dye I sent for isn't needed.

Am using the underside of a 2.4 metre x 0.65 piece of worktop as my large & definitive testpiece, which has a very noticeable pale full stave of sapwood showing. I've wet dried & sanded it. Then applied a 1:4 dilution of the Manns Waterbased Wood Dye, wiped surplus away after a minute then dried & sanded it. Carefully using a smallish sponge brush I've gone over the strip of sapwood with a stronger (1:3) dilution of the Brown Wood Dye, wiped dry to remove surplus, dried & sanded as before. Have just applied the 2nd coat of 1:4 dilution Wood Dye over the whole lot and... you wouldn't know there was any sapwood there. I'ts now drying and looking pretty good.

Experiments with a single coat, with a fad, of sanding sealer... flattened back after, on top of the dried & sanded final coat of wood dye, have proved worthwhile. Rather than the coloured Osmo Poyx entering the millions of tiny open capillaries and muddying the look, filling them with the neutral sanding sealer results in a slightly crisper, more brilliant look once the coloured oil goes on top.

So, will now give it a light sand, coat of sanding sealer, knock it back, wipe clean with white spirit, let it dry, then first coat of Amber coloured Osmo Polyx. If by tomorrow morning that looks the business, I'll get on with fitting the worktops, then do all the finishing in-situ.

Thanks for all the help & advice.