Thinking of buying a Wood Rat

[Anonymous]

Yep.

'tis true. I am sure many are shocked and laughing :wink:

My recent adventure with the table is part of the reason, with a small windfall being the other.

I have now watched the DVD twice (second time to make sure it wasn't a spoof )

Well, I hope that owners of the Rat will post here to refute or agree with the following and help me make my mind up. The cost of the Rat is in my opinion over-the-top for what it is, but this time, cost is not a factor in my decision.

Seems to me that cutting profiles or long trenches on the rat is at best stupid. A silly little brush as the only support for the wood :shock: :shock: I really don't care if it works OK. Your hands are under the table near the cutter and out of sight and the wood is balancing on a 40mm wide scrubbing brush held in a weak-looking plastic clamp!!!

OK, so router table is better here by far with it's long support and gravity working with it rather than against.

Or do users know different?

Joints? Well, the Rat looks to be great for machine cut DTs (although I think the procedure has plenty of scope for errors and the example joint in the DVD is a SLOPPY fit) and uses tools that give a close to hand-cut appearance. I guess that practice (and jigs?) will lead to superb joints.

Mortice and tenons? I was seriously impressed with the tenoning. Cheaper than the Leigh and probably as good. I think this is where the rat scores highly over the table.

Mortices? not so sure but it looked OK. I suspect that I would not use it for mortices and would use either 2 fences on a hand-held router or my morticing machine.

Sliding DTs? Across the width of the board, superb from what I saw and much better than the table.

Raised panels? Looks pretty impressive and safe and uses a standard parallel sided cutter which are cheaper than a raising bit. I think it is limited in the size of door though and this might be a major limitation as it looked to be only about 30cm to me.

Do users know different here? I hope the capacity is much larger.

Finger joints? Looked OK, but prone to small errors again as all is by eye, pencil and blutac!!! I think my router table will be the better bet for finger joints (Incra fence). I see an opportunity to develop the tool for jobs such as this to make it a little easier to use accurately.

One of the main tasks I would want to accomplish with the rat is to cut slots in wood for bolts to pass through. I find this pretty dangerous on the table and almost impossible with hand-held routers is the stock is not 100mm+ wide. I think the Rat will score here but wonder that the max. length I can run through the cutter is when using the clamps and winding handle?


My final thought is that WoodRat are not really offering good value. The Rat needs the plunge bars and DT cutters to get the best from it but none are supplied in the STEEP asking price. I find this a concern and wonder what else one needs to buy to make it work well????

Please offer comments and advice.

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Tony

Don't forget to factor in the price of the all-new Pathfinder Templates which allow the 'rat to do what the Leigh has been doing for years. :lol: :lol:

For further information: 0845 458 2033 and www.woodrat.com

Their open days, at Lower Godney in Somerset, are on the 21st and 22nd April.

Cheers
Neil

 

[RogerS]

Seems to me that cutting profiles or long trenches on the rat is at best stupid. A silly little brush as the only support for the wood :shock: :shock: I really don't care if it works OK. Your hands are under the table near the cutter and out of sight and the wood is balancing on a 40mm wide scrubbing brush held in a weak-looking plastic clamp!!!

OK, so router table is better here by far with it's long support and gravity working with it rather than against.

Spot on.

Joints? Well, the Rat looks to be great for machine cut DTs (although I think the procedure has plenty of scope for errors and the example joint in the DVD is a SLOPPY fit) and uses tools that give a close to hand-cut appearance. I guess that practice (and jigs?) will lead to superb joints.

Yup....but no jigs are needed. Take a look at Aldels' website if you haven't already.

Mortice and tenons? I was seriously impressed with the tenoning. Cheaper than the Leigh and probably as good. I think this is where the rat scores highly over the table.

Can't comment as to the Leigh but, yes, tenons are a doddle...as is squaring up the ends of timber. Another big plus for those who, like me, are hand tool challenged:wink:

Mortices? not so sure but it looked OK. I suspect that I would not use it for mortices and would use either 2 fences on a hand-held router or my morticing machine.

Mortices come into their own on the Rat IMHO and beats my morticer hands down.

Sliding DTs? Across the width of the board, superb from what I saw and much better than the table.

Absolutely! You're getting there :wink: :lol:

Raised panels? Looks pretty impressive and safe and uses a standard parallel sided cutter which are cheaper than a raising bit. I think it is limited in the size of door though and this might be a major limitation as it looked to be only about 30cm to me.

You've got me on this one. I'd not even thought/not even sure how I'd use my Rat for this.

Finger joints? Looked OK, but prone to small errors again as all is by eye, pencil and blutac!!! I think my router table will be the better bet for finger joints (Incra fence). I see an opportunity to develop the tool for jobs such as this to make it a little easier to use accurately.

Don't seem to get many errors with the pencil and Blutac...but then again I've not used an Incra. Isn't cutting the fingers at equal distances easier on the Rat?

One of the main tasks I would want to accomplish with the rat is to cut slots in wood for bolts to pass through. I find this pretty dangerous on the table and almost impossible with hand-held routers is the stock is not 100mm+ wide. I think the Rat will score here but wonder that the max. length I can run through the cutter is when using the clamps and winding handle?

If I understand you correctly, do you mean like a groove in the wood into which the rod will go? Precisely what I need to do to build my workbench and I was going to use the router table. Why is it dangerous?

Go on...buy one...you know it makes sense

 

[Anonymous]

If I understand you correctly, do you mean like a groove in the wood into which the rod will go? Precisely what I need to do to build my workbench and I was going to use the router table. Why is it dangerous?

Go on...buy one...you know it makes sense

Thanks for the answers roger.

This is dangerous, IMO, as one has to either feed the wood down onto a rotating cutter to start it off or raise the rotating cutter through the wood somehow.

You are holding the wood in your fingers and waiting for it to snag or slip
An alternative might be to raise the cutter up through the wood and then push it along the table to cut the groove. I can't see how one can easily do this safely or even practically (how to hold the wood in place and raise the router?)
I used to use stops clamped to the fence and rest the wood against it as I lowered it onto the cutter.


I have cut them on the table at least a dozen times now and twice the wood was ripped out of my fingers and thrown across the workshop whilst starting the cut.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Hi Tony,
Sorry to hear that you are still bandaged up.
Am I right in thinking you are talking about running a slot down the centre of a board, say for and adjustable jig of some sort? A through mortice, if you like. I do this regularly and never have a problem. A backstop to prevent kickback and a pushsick that presses down as well as forward, are essential.
If you reverse the workpiece for a second cut to centralize the slot, I can see that being a problem, if you are cutting on the back side of the cutter, This will mean climb-cutting and yes, you are then asking for trouble. But if you adjust you cutter correctly in the first place, so that any second cut is cutting on the front, as normal, then I think a router table is as safe a way as any of doing this.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Chris Knight]

Tony,
Pretty much on target with your thoughts, I would say although I haven't actually used my rat for over a year (I do have other things that I do!).

Don't worry about the pencil line thing - a little practice and everything fits well. I have never used or tried to use the Rat as a production machine but I would have no difficulty in dovetailing parts for 30 or 40 (slightly different ) drawers in a day. I am not sure how the new templates would help me, given this.

Nothing beats it for working on end grain (think loose tenons).

I use the router table/Incra fence for tenons and sliding dovetails.

 

[Nick W]

Don't forget to factor in the price of the all-new Pathfinder Templates which allow the 'rat to do what the Leigh has been doing for years. :lol: :lol:

I still can't see this on the web site. Is it there yet, or are they still waiting for the quality to come good?

 

[Alf]

Yep.

'tis true. I am sure many are shocked and laughing :wink:

Ha hum. Sorry 'bout that unseemly hilarity.

The cost of the Rat is in my opinion over-the-top for what it is, but this time, cost is not a factor in my decision.

He says, going on to mention cost later as a final blow for anti-Ratness...

Seems to me that cutting profiles or long trenches on the rat is at best stupid.
<snippity snip>
Or do users know different?

Oh yes indeedy. As it happens the brush can work very well if the workpiece lends itself to it. But better still is using the table or box (homemade - if you must - "jig" :roll: ) and, for narrow stuff, a guide clamp. The table replaces the brush and the guide clamp creates a tunnel. Totally safe; your fingers can't physically reach the cutter at all. The mortise rail, at least the one I made, can also help with edge profiling too:

Joints? Well, the Rat looks to be great for machine cut DTs (although I think the procedure has plenty of scope for errors and the example joint in the DVD is a SLOPPY fit) and uses tools that give a close to hand-cut appearance. I guess that practice (and jigs?) will lead to superb joints.

Practice and understanding. Although now might be the time for a show of hands from 'Ratters as to how many of us actually regularly (or even irregularly) use it for dovetails. I know I don't.

Mortice and tenons? I was seriously impressed with the tenoning. Cheaper than the Leigh and probably as good. I think this is where the rat scores highly over the table.

Yep.

Mortices? not so sure but it looked OK. I suspect that I would not use it for mortices and would use either 2 fences on a hand-held router or my morticing machine.

I must admit I prefer other means than the 'Rat.

Sliding DTs? Across the width of the board, superb from what I saw and much better than the table.

My absolute fave; use that more than anything else.

Raised panels? Looks pretty impressive and safe and uses a standard parallel sided cutter which are cheaper than a raising bit. I think it is limited in the size of door though and this might be a major limitation as it looked to be only about 30cm to me.

Do users know different here? I hope the capacity is much larger.

Not sure what limitation there is other than length of bit limiting the fielding. :-k Makes a helluva a mess though.

Finger joints? Looked OK, but prone to small errors again as all is by eye, pencil and blutac!!!

Even with my eyesight I have no trouble splitting a pencil line with the 'Rat - don't knock it. I don't bother with finger joints; dovetailing is just as easy and looks nicer, IMO.

One of the main tasks I would want to accomplish with the rat is to cut slots in wood for bolts to pass through. I find this pretty dangerous on the table and almost impossible with hand-held routers is the stock is not 100mm+ wide. I think the Rat will score here but wonder that the max. length I can run through the cutter is when using the clamps and winding handle?

Slots as in movable fences and such? Piece of cake.

My final thought is that WoodRat are not really offering good value. The Rat needs the plunge bars and DT cutters to get the best from it but none are supplied in the STEEP asking price. I find this a concern and wonder what else one needs to buy to make it work well????

Well I'm glad cost isn't an issue... :wink: :lol: The 'Rat needs neither plunge bar or special cutters; they're just nice to have. No point in having a machine that can cut such fine dovetail angles and then using clunky ones though, is it? Dunno if they're chucking in the aluminium rails yet? Those are worth having, opening up more possibilities as they do. Other than that nothing else strikes me.

Cheers, Alf

 

[aldel]

Tony,

Thinking of a 'Rat eh?!

As you will probably gather from my site, I am an enthusiast. Buy, try and if you don't like sell it. You will lose very little. There are some things that you can do on the 'Rat that are perhaps better done on the router table. eg profiling long edges or when large bits are needed. However, once you have one you will wonder how you managed without it.
Many people scoff at the brush but it does work. I very rarely use the brush, relying more on other methods with home made tables etc.
Efficient workholding is the secret and many people have designed clever systems to use with their machine.
Plunge bars are not obligatory but do make life easier. You can of course make your own.
There are numerous ways of cutting each type of joint and you will quickly find your preferred way. I, for instance have my own way of cutting dovetails which is explained on my site.
The plastic clamps are surprisingly strong and I challenge you to find many reports of things breaking. Spares are readily available. Its true that
I have not managed to achieve 100% chip and dust collection in use but I can live with that.
Like all machines there is a learning curve but you will find precious few people who are not happy with it.
I also use a Leigh jig but the two are not directly comparable.

Go on - buy one. You kow you want to!!

Regards aldel

 

[Mike.C]

My final thought is that Woodrat are not really offering good value. The Rat needs the plungebars and DT cutters to get the best from it but none are supplied in the STEEP asking price. I find this a concern and wonder what else one needs to buy to make it work well????

Tony, if or when you place an order why not ask them if one or both of the above can be thrown in to seal the deal? It can't hurt to ask.

IMHO a product that costs around £400 should at least contain the cutters. You would not expect to find that your table saw, planer/thicknesser, or bandsaw did not include a blade, so why not the Woodrat.

If you do buy one, i hope that you enjoy it.

Cheers

Mike

Edit: sorry, but for some reason the quote did not work
I sorted it for you Mike, DaveL

 

[GCR]

Tony

Some thoughts:

Profiles and trenches are great when you can use a mortice rail or home-made support - everything clamped down and very safe. Short pieces are particularly safe when clamped to a support. I dont like the idea of a brush and have never used one.

Joints - the Rat will cut great dowel joints (and even make the dowels). M&T very easy. Finger joints work well with a computer print out for a pattern, you may meed to alter the spacing by 1/10 mm for best results, depends on the cutter- I have had a lot of success with boxes made from ply (as long as the ply is supported with scrap either side of the joint)

Go for it!

Bob

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all that. Interesting stuff that has definitely pushed me closer to buying one.

Aldel, I have looked at almost all of you jigs and tips and learnt loads. To be honest, I can't really see how your approach to DTs works better than the one in the DVD. Surely it is harder to see the lines on the wood and to cut to them?

I think I may be missing something.

However, I very much doubt that I will cut through-DTs on a Rat as hand cutting DTs is my favourite woodworking activity. however, half-blind DTs are too much effort most of the time, and a Rat would be used for these.

 

[Adam]

Seems to me that cutting profiles or long trenches on the rat is at best stupid. A silly little brush as the only support for the wood :shock: :shock: I really don't care if it works OK. Your hands are under the table near the cutter and out of sight and the wood is balancing on a 40mm wide scrubbing brush held in a weak-looking plastic clamp!!!

Please offer comments and advice.

I think cutting profiles on it is no problem. In fact, the nice thing is you can climb cut them if you wish.

To be honest Tony, as an engineer, its only once you get the thing in your hands, you'll appreciate it for its versitility. I think of it as a milling machine, and use it in that way.

Adam

 

[Anonymous]

Fair point there Adam. I was really referring to pieces that won't fit in the clamps though, if they fit in the clamps, then it is great for the trenching.

As you say, I need to try or buy one. I'll probably sell the Leigh first and then buy one as I haven't used it for a year (all hand cut DTs these days)

 

[Anonymous]

Well, my Rat was delayed by the bank holiday :twisted:

But it arrived yesterday (hammer)

I had already made up a mounting box as suggested on this very forum and yesterday I managed to mount the Rat to the wall, install dust extraction and finally take a couple of test cuts before mrs T came home and play stopped :?

First impressions?
I am really very pleased with it and have only one area of concern.

I really don't like the idea of all those 'test cuts' in offcuts of wood or little blocks cut to 'just the right thickness' and would prefer some measurement scales on the machine to allow accurate alignment and measurement (engineering background showing through eh? :lol: ) Good measuring scales with the facility to zero when the tool is touching the wood face, would make tenoning and sliding DTs quicker and easier as no block need be made before the cut is made.

IMO, possibly too much emphasis has been placed on "Minimum Technology Solution(s)", where a little implementation of technology would have increased accuracy and ease of use.

Having said that, I feel it will be an easy task to sort some scales out and attach them. I will, of course be spending a lot of time on Aldel's site and a few others and can foresee some fun making jigs (I like jigs :wink and trying out various practices.

On the whole, I am seriously chuffed with the Rat thus far, consider it a good purchase that I would recommend to anyone thinking of buying one and can see it being used a lot.

Alf, you were right all along :wink: :lol: :wink:

 

[Jake]

We'll get you actually try a festool one day, too.

 

[Alf]

Alf, you were right all along :wink: :lol: :wink:

I knew that too... :wink: :lol: Glad you're pleased with it.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

We'll get you actually try a festool one day, too.

:lol:
Dream on :wink:

 

[Adam]

We'll get you actually try a festool one day, too.

:lol:
Dream on :wink:

Thats what you said about the 'rat!!! :shock:

Adam

 

[engineer one]

tony,
i think the thing with the rat is it teaches you to think outside the box.

although originally designed as a dovetail device, i think it is a much more flexible device than a standard table, not least because the bit is under the table, not really neat your hands. the brush always looks daft at the get-go, but because of the direction of the cutter rotation is much more useful than you would think.

as for the use of blocks, for an engineer, that looks less accurate than a ruler, but not all of us can trust our eyes all the time, so the block jigs used with wood ensure the right fit, not least because it is always easier to ensure sizes in metal, but wood is more "flexible". also as a thought, one tends to use blocks and stops when using a mitre saw, so why not with the rat.

for me the only restriction of the rat is the length of its "pull out",
i.e . you can only trench across the wood up to about 300mm, would be nice to be able to get to 600, but not sure that fits the ethos.

another thought, you do not need the plunge bar, it just makes life easier, and to compare that with "normal" tables tends to forget the fact that almost every month in the magazines there are articles about people making fine adjustment devices, car jacks, rout-a-lifts etc come to mind.

finally, the woodrat like most tables assumes that you already have a router, and some bits thereof. as alf said you do not need to buy the cutters they just make life easier. also whilst you get a blade with most table saws, circular saws, band saws, jigsaws etc, almost everybody changes them to get a better finish.

i think you will find tony that your working capabilities will be improved and your working will be more safe, which you need at this time i would guess. (sorry)

final laugh for the day, on govt ppi contracts in scotland, if you want to use a stanley knife on site, the blade has to have rounded corners, no pointy ends :? :? :? i thought the idea was to cut with it :lol: :lol: :lol:


paul :wink: