The old machinery conundrum

[heimlaga]

Lately a certain ranted quite a lot about the "old wood working machine fan club" and our alleged preaches.

Rather than turning his thread into a pub brawl I decided to leave him alone and create a new thread on the subject.

From my point of wiew new and shiny is no virtue in the world of woodworking machines. Neither is old and worn. I rekon that a good machine is a machine that gets the job done efficiently and accurately over and over again.
Such machines exist. Both old and new.
Wadkin and Robinson and Kölle and Jonsered and Waco are just a few of the older brands. SCM l'Invincibile and Panhans and Martin and Sedgwick and Ejca are just a few of the newer brands. All of them very good in their own right.

However few if any hobbyists or small business owners can afford to buy that kind of machines new. The whole western world is a living proof of the old Swedish adage that "a man in debt isn't free". Loaning lots of money to pay more stuff doesn't make us richer.

Most people resort to buying sub-standard chineese stuff that lasts only a few years and never functions properly. For some reson lots of beople expect a cheaply made hobby grade machine to perform like a professional machine for 10times the cost just because the chineese hobby machine is new and shiny. Some are fortunate in the great import lottery and get a good specimen that is sufficient for hobby use. Some are un fortunate and get a chunk of useless scrap metal.
It is a fact of life that nobody nowhere on earth can make machines of constantly good quality at that prize point. Hence there is nothing such as a very good new bandsaw for 700 pounds. Within those limits one can just take the gamble and either win or loose.

Buying secondhand and rebuilding is for many of us the only way of getting good machines. You get some leverage on your investment this way. Time equals money and since your own time is free from income tax and commuting costs the hourly rate doesn't have to be very high to make a rebuild worthwhile. Especially not if you can make use of downtime that would otherwise be spent in front of the computer or television. For a hobbyist the absence of VAT on one's own labour increases the leverage even further.

Some machines are with rebuilding and some not. Times are changing and during the last 100 years there has been a bit of progress after all. For instance an early 20th century fourside planer with whitemetal bearings and fixed square cutterhead is hopelessly outdated and cannot be modernized in a feasible way.
However there are lots of good machines in many shapes and sizes that are just waiting for an owner who would rebuild and upgrade them and make them ready for a second lifetime. Many of them can be modernized to perform just as perfectly as a new Panhans or l'Invincibile at less than a quarter of the cash cost. They are often rather cheap and if they aren't they shouldn't be bought. An old machine has to be cheap if there is to be any hourly rate at all for the rebuilder.

So....the inevitable conclusion is that when somebody ask for a good bandsaw for 700 pounds the only reasonable answer will be an old one. A new good one costs over 2000 pounds and anything cheaper will be a gamble at best.
Some people lack both the money required to buy a new good machine and the time or the skill or the space for a rebuild and are therefore forced by cirkumstances to buy machines that aren't good and I don't blame anyone for that. Powerty and lack of time are no shame just hard facts of everyday life in reality....... but I don't like this modern way of thinking where a good machine is expected to be new and shiny and nothing more.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

There is a lot of good sense here - for comparable quality I accept that a properly refurbished old machine is usually going to perform better than a modern "equivalent" for the same money. But - and there is always a but (or many of them):

• Old machines typically need lots of space - many hobby woodworkers work in fairly modest surroundings - garages and sheds etc
  
  Old machines which can weigh several hundred kg may need specialised lifting gear and substantial pads/base for installation
  
  Refurbishing old machines needs access to a range of metal working skills and equipment - not everyone is able to manage this due to location or inclination
  
  Spares often have to be fabricated - compatible tooling etc is not often available. Spares are not often available off the shelf (although new kit is no guarantee either)
  
  Many hobby woodworkers devote a few hours a week to their hobby due to other commitments - family, job, garden etc. Restoring old machines would probably mean no woodwork - although restoration may be satisfying as a hobby anyway.
  
  Many hobby woodworkers do not have a 3 phase supply usually needed for larger machines - although there are ways round this
  
  Unless you have a good knowledge and experience of machinery, making sound purchases of equipment 30 - 120 years old is a huge risk. Bought from a reputable supplier defective new machines can be repaired/returned under warranty.

At the end of the day for the low volume output by most hobbyists, reasonable/good quality, mid/upper range new machines are generally entirely adequate. A 750kg cast iron bandsaw still only cuts wood. It may perform for years running 24x7 where the modern equivalent will have expired. But for most hobby woodwork it is probably overkill - a bit like using a Humvee for the school run or the sledgehammer to crack a walnut.

 

[heimlaga]

I think your fifth point is most valid of them all. Shortage of time puts people in a situation where they are forced to choose. In such a situation a cheap chineese machine may be a very good choice.
At the time when my woodworking was just a hobby I made the choice to minimize the number of tools and machines instead of their size and quality. When I started out as a part-timer I still followed this route to some degree....... it worked for me..... I only recently bought my first ever router for instance. Never needed one before......... though there are of cause several routes to choose between.

I am 35 and have always lived in the same village on the coast of Finland. Around here the skills and the knowledge is everywhere. As are heavy machinery for lifting. As are welders and machinists who can help me out when needed. Almost every man is either a bit of a woodworker or a bit of a metalworker or a bit of both......... Maybe this all boils down to the difference between a "can do" and a "cannot do" society.

 

[Lons]

There are of course a couple of other aspects to consider as far as hobbyist woodworkers are concerned.

1). Noise / nuisance factors as workshops are usually attached or in close proximity to houses and neighbours also very often wooden sheds which amplify the sounds. This is of course where older or new machines with decent induction motors come into their own whereas many of the cheapies or site equipment are very noisy.

2). Everything surely depends on what the woodworker makes or intends to make with the machinery. It's very nice to own very heavy, good quality machines but often they are seriously over capacity for the tasks performed on them. I am as guilty as most in this respect e.g. I have a Robland (Startrite) 310 planer thicknesser that rarely sees the light of day as most of my requirements can be carried out on the K5 with its' 150mm x 100 capacity. :roll: So in effect the Robland is like being married to a gorgeous model - lovely to look at but expensive to run. :lol:

I have an old Startrite 352 bandsaw and I love it but it rarely cuts anything larger than 100mm thick and I could easily get away with a smaller model. Even if all I cut were 25mm pen blanks I'd still want it though it's way over the top.

I drive a quality German car when a cheap korean model would get me from A to B just the same but I wouldn't enjoy the journey half as much, same with my woodwork, after all time in the workshop is limited so most of us want to extract the most enjoyment possible.

Bob

 

[YorkshireMartin]

There is a lot of good sense here - for comparable quality I accept that a properly refurbished old machine is usually going to perform better than a modern "equivalent" for the same money. But - and there is always a but (or many of them):

• Old machines typically need lots of space - many hobby woodworkers work in fairly modest surroundings - garages and sheds etc
  
  Not sure about this one, there are lots of smaller machines which are also old and highly rated, like the Inca 260. I think it would be more accurate to say old industrial machines need a lot of space, so do new ones.
  
  Old machines which can weigh several hundred kg may need specialised lifting gear and substantial pads/base for installation
  
  Similar to my response to your first point, it really depends on the machine rather than the age of it. If you're talking about an industrial machine, its going to be heavy old or new. Heavy is an asset for many applications as it aids stability, tensioning and so on but yes, it can make them awkward to move/install or maintain, thats for sure. Older machines to tend to be heavier I suppose because they are generally made of better materials. I bought a 5 year old "low mileage" pallet truck and can now move the machines wherever I want with absolute ease. It cost me £100. Worth every penny as I move them about every single time I use them to get more space around.
  
  Refurbishing old machines needs access to a range of metal working skills and equipment - not everyone is able to manage this due to location or inclination
  
  Absolutely and it's a challenge, but if you buy a new woodworking machine, unless you want to make warranty calls and be shipping it off periodically, you'd best learn how to maintain it yourself. Buying new doesn't remove the need for maintenance and commissioning. I'd probably argue that unless the old machine is really far gone, the amount of effort for a new machine vs. a well maintained old one, would be roughly comparable
  
  Spares often have to be fabricated - compatible tooling etc is not often available. Spares are not often available off the shelf (although new kit is no guarantee either)
  
  I agree, this can be a problem area. It's best to stick to the major brands like Wadkin, Sedgwick, Startrite and so on
  
  Many hobby woodworkers devote a few hours a week to their hobby due to other commitments - family, job, garden etc. Restoring old machines would probably mean no woodwork - although restoration may be satisfying as a hobby anyway.
  
  That was my reasoning behind the purchase of the chinese machine. I waited 2 weeks for delivery. Then it was dead on arrival. Warranty call resulted in electrical part being sent out for me to fit (I have no experience....nervewracking to be honest). The wrong starting capacitor had been fitted at the factory. After a further 4 day delay waiting for it, I fitted it. It worked for 5 seconds with no load then blew up again. Another warranty call and they offered a replacement machine, in two weeks. I said no and wanted it collecting, which took two weeks. So all told I wasted a full month pratting about with the damn thing.
  
  I then went for a Sedgwick, used but refurbished by a dealer, because I didnt trust myself ot inspect one. It arrived in 3 days and I had it set up and thicknessing, accurately, within 3 hours of completing the required wiring.
  
  Fair enough, not everyones experiences will reflect my own.
  
  
  Many hobby woodworkers do not have a 3 phase supply usually needed for larger machines - although there are ways round this
  
  Again I rather think this is related to the size of machine. Machines that exclusively come in 3 phase are likely to be entirely industrial in nature and thus new machines would also most likely be 3 phase too
  
  Unless you have a good knowledge and experience of machinery, making sound purchases of equipment 30 - 120 years old is a huge risk. Bought from a reputable supplier defective new machines can be repaired/returned under warranty.
  
  I opted for an older industrial (single phase although 20A) planer/thicknesser for example and after a good going over, bearing in mind I have no engineering experience to speak of, it has been absolutely perfect since. Fortunately there was a wealth of information available online and the older machines are really quite simple affairs. It definitely pays to do research and ideally take someone along with you to make the purchase. Remember if you buy from a specialist dealer, they will offer a guarantee and likely wouldn't risk their reputation by selling junk, of course you pay a premium for this (as you do buying new).
  
  

At the end of the day for the low volume output by most hobbyists, reasonable/good quality, mid/upper range new machines are generally entirely adequate. A 750kg cast iron bandsaw still only cuts wood. It may perform for years running 24x7 where the modern equivalent will have expired. But for most hobby woodwork it is probably overkill - a bit like using a Humvee for the school run or the sledgehammer to crack a walnut.

I think that rather depends on what the hobbyist wants to do. The real reasoning behind purchasing older machines is that they are generally of far higher quality. Quality machinery translates to quality and accuracy of cut. If the hobbyist wants to make outdoor furniture from palletwood, then they may be able to get away with less than perfect accuracy. If they want to make fine furniture, does the chinese machine have the accuracy necessary. I would imagine its very hit and miss and from what I've seen around forums, both this one and others, the misses outweight the hits. I like to be able to trust my machinery to stay in calibration between cuts, to work reliably. I don't want to worry about castings failing, or not being able to tension a particular blade, or the fence being slightly out of square. I unfortunately lost all my confidence in the ability of chinese factory's to accomplish these things, because it's all built down to a price, with some exceptions.

Another thing worth mentioning is that if for any reason, you decide woodworking isn't for you, then an older machine will resell for around the same as what you paid for it, sometimes more. A chinese made machine will lose you money no matter how little use it's had or how well it's kept. If you can afford to have the capital invested, it's really a no brainer, at least in my opinion.

Just my tuppence worth based on my own experiences this past year or so.

 

[RobinBHM]

One of the difficulties with making comparisons between new machines, and between new and old is that a list of specifications, capacities etc do not provide much of an indication of how the machine will perform.

Traditional, old, cast iron machines have rigid fences and beds that dont flex. They can maintain there accuracy without constant fettling. The basic, classical woodworking machines, like surface planers, table saws, bandsaws etc have few working parts. A lot of the expense in these machines are in the cast tables, fences, beds etc - not parts that can wear out. Quality machines like Wadkin often have adjustents that take up wear.

As an example, I have a Wadkin RZ16 surface planer. In 16 years of ownership, it has required 1 new belt. Thats it. The depth of cut handle turns like silk. It has a rack and pinion fence that turns easily and keeps the fence square at any position across the bed width. The fence locks dead square every time. However, it weighs 750kgs, only has 2 knives, has no low noise mouth slots etc.

Old machines do have there own issues, most are obsolete with no spare parts available, can be difficult to source, can be very heavy, have no warranty etc.

New machines comply with regulations, have brakes, interlocks, usually delivered cheap and can be available in a few days from order.

I do think that if buying a semi professional / professional machine, it is very worthwhile comparing new machines against decent second hand machines from a dealer. For example a Sedgwick planer thicknesser second hand, in good order and ready to work will be in a different league to a new machine of similar price range.

I dont agree that just because nearly all new machines are Chinese, they are automatically poor. The Chinese manufacture at all price levels and qualities.

 

[Wizard9999]

Maybe this all boils down to the difference between a "can do" and a "cannot do" society.

Hmmmm, a rather sweeping and disparaging statement, I am almost annoyed enough to respond in kind but I'll resist for the moment.

More generally with regard to this thread I don't really get the need to re-run this debate ad nausea, other than the fact that people simply want everyone else to say "OK I have been wrong all along, you are right". Different people have different priorities and make different choices. The world is full of difference, why should woodwork be any different, accept it respect that others can make different decisions without it meaning they are 'right' or 'wrong', then move on.

Terry.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Maybe this all boils down to the difference between a "can do" and a "cannot do" society.

Hmmmm, a rather sweeping and disparaging statement, I am almost annoyed enough to respond in kind but I'll resist for the moment.

More generally with regard to this thread I don't really get the need to re-run this debate ad nausea, other than the fact that people simply want everyone else to say "OK I have been wrong all along, you are right". Different people have different priorities and make different choices. The world is full of difference, why should woodwork be any different, accept it respect that others can make different decisions without it meaning they are 'right' or 'wrong', then move on.

Terry.

Agreed, irregardless of how it's achieved, it's hard to argue with a high quality piece of work!

 

[heimlaga]

We area all right....each in his own way under his own cirkumstances.