The Cutting Edges of H.O. Studley

[Modernist]

Would you like it stirred?

If anyone is interested I can confirm that Jacob's chisels are indeed sharp, I've tried one. There again so are mine and I'm deffo not a round beveller.

 

[Jacob]

This is for Jimbo (wanting more info on the Studley chest). C Schwarz is doing a blog here. Several articles already, with more to come.

 

[jimi43]

Thanks Jacob...much appreciated

 

[katellwood]

...


Studley I admire for the beauty, again of the chest. I have yet to study him in any detail (unlike Seaton)...but I like what I see....functional or not these days.


Jim

Jim

Do you know if Seatons chest is back in Rochester? I saw it there years ago then apparently it went on tour to the States

 

[jimi43]

...........Do you know if Seatons chest is back in Rochester? I saw it there years ago then apparently it went on tour to the States

As far as I know it is...it was in Williamsburg VA up until 1995 for them to make a copy and catalogue the tools in detail.

I must get over there to see it...believe it or not I haven't done so yet!! Mind you...when I lived by the sea I hardly ever went to the beach either! :mrgreen:

Jim

 

[katellwood]

...........Do you know if Seatons chest is back in Rochester? I saw it there years ago then apparently it went on tour to the States

As far as I know it is...it was in Williamsburg VA up until 1995 for them to make a copy and catalogue the tools in detail.

I must get over there to see it...believe it or not I haven't done so yet!! Mind you...when I lived by the sea I hardly ever went to the beach either! :mrgreen:

Jim

Thats my next day out planned, the wife in the shops me in the museum. By the way theres a good second hand book shop in Rochester High St that usually has a good supply of wood orientated books

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

There are a few things that can and cannot be inferred from Mr. Schwartz's investigations, and IMO some have been taken out of context for whatever motives certain people have here. It is obvious from the concave bevel that Studley had access to a large wheel waterstone for grinding. However, the method of honing cannot, with any certainty, be assessed. Can we say Studley intended to produce a concave bevel, and preferred to do it that way? No and in all likelyhood, he did not. ( though I too am guessing, I think logically I might by correct) A very slight convexety is more likely due to the fact that humans are not machines and cannot too easily make their arms move in one plane, but will rock a little and produce a rounding without intention. This is not the same as purposely rounding over (under?) the bevel as per Mr. Sellers and his desciples. Using this sort of artifact to give creedence to a methodology is spurious, as is witnessing one example of a phenomena and concluding that most everyone did the same at the time. The concave grind was likely used as a reference on the stone, and the whole bevel sharpened as flat as humanly possible, freehand; just as many woodworkes do these days. In fact, just the same as Krenov did with concave grinds on his tools.

The 'ruler trick' is nothing new, nor was it ever purported to be by David Charlesworth, who currently champions this method of treating the tool's back. It is likely that many craftsmen used a similar short cut to preclude lengthy blade fettling. However, the 'dubbing over' found in the tool chest was just as likely to be caused by stropping both sides of the plane iron, rather than purposly 'sharpening' a back bevel.

I do not see how we can say woodshops had no way of grinding their tools and had to wait for peddlars and the like to visit with grinding wheels. If these relatively poor traveling folk could afford a sandstone water wheel, I am sure that cabinet makers, piano makers etc. would also have such a necessary device, considering their stock in trade was sharp edge tools. In fact, if memory serves, Alan Peters refers to all cabinet shops having large sandstone waterwheels by the door of their shop. Evidently, Studley ground his tools with a similar device.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

There are a few things that can and cannot be inferred from Mr. Schwartz's investigations, and IMO some have been taken out of context for whatever motives certain people have here.

I guess you mean me. What motive do you imagine I might have? Weird.

. It is obvious from the concave bevel that Studley had access to a large wheel waterstone for grinding. However, the method of honing cannot, with any certainty, be assessed.

I think it can be surmised. Clearly he used a wheel on occasions, but predominantly freehand on stones.

Can we say Studley intended to produce a concave bevel, and preferred to do it that way? No and in all likelyhood, he did not.

If not why did he do it? The answer most likely is that he wasn't too bothered either way but a convex bevel comes out easiest

( though I too am guessing, I think logically I might by correct) A very slight convexety is more likely due to the fact that humans are not machines and cannot too easily make their arms move in one plane, but will rock a little and produce a rounding without intention. This is not the same as purposely rounding over (under?) the bevel as per Mr. Sellers and his desciples.

Yes it is. There is no 'purpose' or direct intention to 'round under' It doesn't serve any useful purpose - it just happens to be easier than trying for a flat one

Using this sort of artifact to give creedence to a methodology is spurious,

:shock: :lol: :lol:

The 'ruler trick' is nothing new, nor was it ever purported to be by David Charlesworth,

He says it was. But it is nothing new in that the same thing is easily achieved without a ruler and has been done since the stone age (I guess)

who currently champions this method of treating the tool's back. It is likely that many craftsmen used a similar short cut to preclude lengthy blade fettling. However, the 'dubbing over' found in the tool chest was just as likely to be caused by stropping both sides of the plane iron, rather than purposly 'sharpening' a back bevel.

Guesswork. Why not do it purposefully?

I do not see how we can say woodshops had no way of grinding their tools and had to wait for peddlars and the like to visit with grinding wheels. If these relatively poor traveling folk could afford a sandstone water wheel, I am sure that cabinet makers, piano makers etc. would also have such a necessary device, considering their stock in trade was sharp edge tools. In fact, if memory serves, Alan Peters refers to all cabinet shops having large sandstone waterwheels by the door of their shop. Evidently, Studley ground his tools with a similar device.

Mike.

Wheels are not always available. They are/were not cheap or portable and anyway sharpening can be managed perfectly well without them.
I must say I am fascinated by this topic, not least because of posts like this one and the intense and convoluted efforts to deny things for which Studley provides simple clear evidence and which appear to me (and many others) as plain as a pikestaff.
What's it all about? Does anybody know? Why are they so anxious to deny the obvious and make sharpening more difficult in the process?


PS the evidence that flat oil stones were the preferred method for 100s of years is archaeological; the continued existence and availability of vast numbers of these items, of all ages. Several 100 per grindwheel at a guess. The one essential item in everybody's kit.

 

[GazPal]

I do not see how we can say woodshops had no way of grinding their tools and had to wait for peddlars and the like to visit with grinding wheels. If these relatively poor traveling folk could afford a sandstone water wheel, I am sure that cabinet makers, piano makers etc. would also have such a necessary device, considering their stock in trade was sharp edge tools. In fact, if memory serves, Alan Peters refers to all cabinet shops having large sandstone waterwheels by the door of their shop. Evidently, Studley ground his tools with a similar device.

Mike.

Much of the sharpening exercises carried out in house simply revolved around re-whetting edges and not re-grinding them. Tool sharpening was carried out by travellers and smiths who specialised in shaping and reshaping metal. The majority of cabinetry was produced on a cottage industry basis - re the many craftsmen working as single entities - and not in the same sense as larger post-industrial revolution workshops.

These are historical facts and Alan Peters (Although cabinetmaker from a different generation to myself) was not around during the period to which I referred. You've a very blinkered perspective if you choose to believe the supposition that every workshop possessed a large grinding wheel. It simply wasn't the case.

My family's workshop eventually invested in a large grinding wheel circa 1870, but in partnership with other shops in the local vicinity. The cost of the treadle wheel was not a trifling sum of money and was the primary reason they and many other workshops utilised the services of others for grinding tasks. They also took a great deal of care of their tools - during the days when laying your square upon the ground could result in a fine - and seldom created damage warranting the purchase of a large grindstone.

I know all too well who - in the workshop - tended to be given the job of regrinding chisel and plane irons using coarse oil stones and it didn't tend to be the craftsmen. First and second year apprentices had their uses.

 

[bugbear]

I know all too well who - in the workshop - tended to be given the job of regrinding chisel and plane irons using coarse oil stones and it didn't tend to be the craftsmen. First and second year apprentices had their uses.

Sturt [ The Wheelwright's Shop ] writes of often (as a lad) turning the grindstone (simple handle, not a treadle) for the craftsmen.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

I think you'd expect to find grindstones in a wheelwright's shop as the work is fairly large scale agricultural. Similarly they were common in the yards of bigger farms, presumably for all those big hand tools and machines with cutting edges.

 

[Racers]

Hi, Jacob

Have you read the book?

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Hi, Jacob

Have you read the book?

Pete

Certainly have. A classic. The classic really, as it tells more than any other book I've read, about 'traditional' working practices, unwritten knowledge and how it works.

 

[bugbear]

Hi, Jacob

Have you read the book?

Pete

Certainly have. A classic. The classic really, as it tells more than any other book I've read, about 'traditional' working practices, unwritten knowledge and how it works.

I prefer "the Village Carpenter" by Walter Rose. He's less pretentious and more cheerful than Sturt, who is a miserable old scrote.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

I myself have spent hours turning the grindstone. It stood under a walnut tree; and in sunny weather there might have been worse jobs. Only, sometimes the grinding lasted too long - especially for a new tool, or for an ax. Cook was a terror in this respect. Time seemed no object with him; he must get his edge. And he had a word I used to wonder at. For when a new plane or chisel proved over-brittle, so that a nick chinked out of it and needed grinding wholly away,.........
There you go - grinding new tools, axes, nicked edges. Just what you'd expect.
Ordinary routine sharpening would almost certainly be done freehand on flat oil stones. Will have to read the book again to see if there is any reference.

Sturt... is a miserable old scrote. Well yes perhaps so. He fancied himself as a 'creative' writer and thought TWWS was not really 'literature'. But it was a miserable age for many - WW1 being only just over.
Also he was a reluctant wheelwright, not having expected to find himself in the family business .

 

[bugbear]

There you go - grinding new tools, axes, nicked edges. Just what you'd expect.

Actually, those were just the tools that took too long to grind; once can infer that other tools were being ground, but didn't take too long.

Only, sometimes the grinding lasted too long - especially for a new tool, or for an ax.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

......... once can infer that other tools were being ground, but didn't take too long......

Occasionally yes, but as a rule you can be certain that small tools were very rarely ground on a wheel, if ever.

Here's a few old grind wheels
They are nearly all agricultural/industrial in scale. Many of them are for corn and other materials.
Old grind wheels for woodwork tools are relatively rare, mainly because not many people used them.
Old oil stones are extremely common.
Old honing jigs are unheard of! I bet there isn't on in the Studley chest. Could be wrong - all will no doubt be revealed by C Schwarz.

 

[GazPal]

Hi, Jacob

Have you read the book?

Pete

Certainly have. A classic. The classic really, as it tells more than any other book I've read, about 'traditional' working practices, unwritten knowledge and how it works.

"Unwritten knowledge and how it works" is perhaps a key phrase to reaching an understanding of how a great many traditionally taught apprentices learnt their craft. Much was learned by example, watching and listening to how the apprentice master manipulated tools and materials and this progressed throughout the period of an apprenticeship. The apprentice could also learn a great deal of the history surrounding his chosen vocation and this - in turn - would then be passed on to his pupil/pupils.

------------

So much has been made of the topic surrounding the need to grind tools within a woodworking shop, but grinding seldom tends to happen unless edges become damaged and/or blades are in need of rescue. Much of the time spent dealing with edges relates directly with the use of whetting stones and not grinding stones/wheels. Unless working as a stonemason.

 

[bugbear]

Much of the time spent dealing with edges relates directly with the use of whetting stones and not grinding stones/wheels.

Absolutely - old texts say the same thing. Honing is frequent, (re)grinding infrequent, when the shape of the edge is beyond what a whet stone can do.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

It's all gone quiet on this thread. Too quiet. :shock:
Wossappen to our trolls?

I googled 'old oil stones' (in the interests of balance; compare and contrast 'old grindstones' hardly anything for woodworkers).

Lo and behold several thousand old woodworkers' oil stones (strangely interspersed with scantily clad women - is that a woodwork thing? :roll: )