The Angel Gabriel

[jimi43]

Regular readers of the bootfair threads will have seen the little woodie I dug up last weekend...

I think it was once said that once I got into woodies...and stepped on the hollows and rounds slope...I would be lost on the Black Run forever...

Well...if you are going to go off piste...you might as well get decent skis...and this little angel is just wonderful! 8)

For something over 200 years old...this slab of beech bears the mark of a quality plane maker...someone who would walk the 200 miles from deepest Cornwall to London...to walk the streets of gold and come out the other side with most of it!

If you are into the Seaton chest...you will know that Ben's dad went shopping at Gabriel's for his son....and I can see why...he was an astute man.

So I grabbed another scrap of wood...marked a trio of score lines as guides on the edge and went off to play with this little gem...

Bearing in mind that I am no way a cabinet maker...I used no fence but my finger....and following a few score lines...I was amazed how true this tool performed....

If the sun shines this weekend...I have a few more boxes of woodies reserved for me to rummage through from the same source...and I think I might just find a "host" of these....I might even spend my budget on a few...but chances are this is probably the only appearance of an angel in Kent...outside Rochester that is! :wink:

I am slowly gathering a collection of tools that are just that bit special...to make an heirloom tool chest...and one thing's for sure...I will be using the tools that go in it......

Jim

 

[GazPal]

This is the beauty of woodworking as a little practise can potentially produce great dividends from - quite often - exquisite, yet often simply made tools whilst producing pieces capable of being handed down a generation or two. Many of my own tools were handed down to me and - whilst extremely tempting to collect more - I still find joy using them after over forty years in my possession and service as a craftsman. Still only a drop in the ocean in terms of their collective past working histories, but still tools to be used and mastered as best we can wherever possible.

 

[bugbear]

For something over 200 years old...

Whilst bench planes get hard wear, and might only last a single life times, the "speciality" planes are used either infrequently or lightly. There is no reason other than rust or rot that they shouldn't last centuries.

Finding truly old ones isn't that unusual, but it's always a joy.

BugBear

 

[Corneel]

Beautifull!

 

[AndyT]

They are fun aren't they! I've been saying for some time (!) on here that wooden planes are astoundingly under-appreciated. This is a lovely example of why they deserve more respect.
However, I do think that there cannot be many more years when the general public is in such ignorance and is prepared to give these things away for less than the price of a sandwich. (Though there is a nice reminiscence in Ernest Joyce where he says he bought some old moulding planes 'for pennies' which must have been a few decades ago.)

I think the Americans will push up ebay prices on the really good stuff, and the rest will follow. Good quality pairs of snipe's bill planes have been fetching hundreds of pounds lately. I think Chris Schwarz and Matt Bickford are to blame - but then I love the way that their enthusiasm for old tools comes across. Matt Bickford's blog is an especially persuasive account of how a set of hollows and rounds will allow you to make any shape moulding you want.

Jim, if you have a family collection to the Gabriels that you want to follow up, do you know that there is a really hard-core tool history book on just that one family?

Only £11.95 from Classic Hand Tools - unless you can find a copy in a damp field one early morning!

 

[andersonec]

Well, I keep seeing on here (and elsewhere) planes being bragged about because they cost £400 or so :shock: pray tell me someone how cabinet makers of yesteryear produced the quality/precision with wooden planes and other tools (some of which were hand made) that lack the precision/price of the modern item? I have this theory that it was something to do with knowing your tool, how to get the best from it, years of practice and just pure skill, I stand in awe when I see some of that fantastic old furniture, and not a Lie Nielsen or a Clifton (tested to 1.5 thou) in sight, it's wood we're working with, not Rolex watches.
I'm not saying don't use them, if you can afford that sort of money then so be it, things advance, but is it the tool which produces the quality or the person setting it up and using it?

Andy

 

[matthewwh]

Hi Andy,

Most of the ironmongers of yesteryear offered credit accounts because the cost of tools then was extremely high relative to the average working man's income.

Take a bedrock No.7 from the 1925 Melhuish catalogue at 30 shillings and sixpence.

Brown & Hopkins (from Economica Vol 22 1955) have a craftsmans wages for the same period as 180d (15 shillings) per 10 hours.

Given a modern 37-1/2 hour working week for equivalence sake that's 56 shillings and thruppence a week. So your plane would cost you more than half of a weeks wages.

You'd be very hard pushed to find a skilled craftsman who would get out of bed for less than a grand a week these days. so in modern terms that's at least £500 in modern money, they didn't have VAT then, so adding that would make it £600. Yet you can now buy the equivalent tool brand new for £189.50 including VAT and postage to anywhere in the country.

In the words of Mr Wilson, You've never had it so good!

 

[woodbrains]

Hi Andy,

Most of the ironmongers of yesteryear offered credit accounts because the cost of tools then was extremely high relative to the average working man's income.

Take a bedrock No.7 from the 1925 Melhuish catalogue at 30 shillings and sixpence.

Brown & Hopkins (from Economica Vol 22 1955) have a craftsmans wages for the same period as 180d (15 shillings) per 10 hours.

Given a modern 37-1/2 hour working week for equivalence sake that's 56 shillings and thruppence a week. So your plane would cost you more than half of a weeks wages.

You'd be very hard pushed to find a skilled craftsman who would get out of bed for less than a grand a week these days. so in modern terms that's at least £500 in modern money, they didn't have VAT then, so adding that would make it £600. Yet you can now buy the equivalent tool brand new for £189.50 including VAT and postage to anywhere in the country.

In the words of Mr Wilson, You've never had it so good!

Well said. Quality tools are more affordable now than in the 'golden years' and arguably better quality. Also, the standard of craftsmanship expected of fine furniture makers in this day and age, is actually higher than the old days too. So it always ticks me off when people seem to think that craftsmen these days are somehow less skilled than our forebears and we are somehow being ripped off with the prices we have to pay for decent tools. Good old tools are a joy to use, and should still be used now and in the future, but what we do have now is choice. Choice to buy some of the finest hand tools available for many years, choice to make our own and choice to bring back to life some fine old antiques, to use rather than collect. You might just find that the best antique cabinetmaking tools were made to thou tolerances too. You couldn't plane something flat 100 years ago any better than you can now, with a plane who's sole isn't true.

I was brought up on woodies and love them, but they are not the most viable tools to use for professionals, where time is money and even the upkeep of a set of moulding planes can be so time consuming as to make them unusable. This is why so many are found for such little money; it seems they are not wanted when the truth is they are just uneconomical and take up too much space. It is the job of the amateur to keep them alive and let us all enjoy doing so for many years to come.

Mike.

 

[andersonec]

Hi Andy,

Most of the ironmongers of yesteryear offered credit accounts because the cost of tools then was extremely high relative to the average working man's income.

Take a bedrock No.7 from the 1925 Melhuish catalogue at 30 shillings and sixpence.

Brown & Hopkins (from Economica Vol 22 1955) have a craftsmans wages for the same period as 180d (15 shillings) per 10 hours.

Given a modern 37-1/2 hour working week for equivalence sake that's 56 shillings and thruppence a week. So your plane would cost you more than half of a weeks wages.

You'd be very hard pushed to find a skilled craftsman who would get out of bed for less than a grand a week these days. so in modern terms that's at least £500 in modern money, they didn't have VAT then, so adding that would make it £600. Yet you can now buy the equivalent tool brand new for £189.50 including VAT and postage to anywhere in the country.

In the words of Mr Wilson, You've never had it so good!

One thousand pounds a week :shock:

And there I was thinking my £90 a day before tax was good, you're right, I've never had it so good :?

Andy

 

[Pete W]

I was thinking my £90 a day before tax was good, you're right, I've never had it so good :?

If you're self-employed, £90 a day is woefully undercharging. With all other expenses factored, that's barely minimum wage.

 

[andersonec]

With what I do (or did) I've packed it in now, It's the only way you can get the work.

Before........

After....

Before....

After....

There's more.
Andy

 

[andersonec]

[/quote]

Also, the standard of craftsmanship expected of fine furniture makers in this day and age, is actually higher than the old days too.

Mike.[/quote]


:?: :?: :?: :?:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Thomas ... 24&bih=653

Considering the tools they were using over two hundred years ago.


Andy

 

[woodbrains]

also, the standard of craftsmanship expected of fine furniture makers in this day and age, is actually higher than the old days too.

Mike.

:?: :?: :?: :?:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Thomas ... 24&bih=653

Considering the tools they were using over two hundred years ago.


Andy

Nice, and I wasn't saying different. But how were their tools different? My tenon saw is more or less the same but probably inferior! Chisels, planes saws, all not changed for centuries. And did you know the spindle moulder was inventd in the 1790's.

Ask the Barnsley workshop whether their output today is superior to that of Sidney and Edward, Gimson and Waals etc. They will say it certainly is. Just as the tools become more advanced so do expectations. And if you think the best craftsmen of today are in any way inferior, then look around at some of the better contemporary furniture makers today. Some of the stuff they do pushes boudaries that were never imagined a few years ago and the standard of workmanship inconceivable. Even things like seasonal movement in centrally heated homes is a difficulty they did not have to contend with, or the often intractable timber that is used these days, (probably because the craftsmen of yesteryear used all the good stuff without regard for the future, as we have to do nowadays) I'm all for celebrating the past, but there is no need to think less of todays craftsmen whilst doing it, that is all I'm saying.

Mike.

 

[jimi43]

Nice work there Andy....

I think that a lot of hand tools such as this are easier and quicker at making what they make..in this case...round grooves

The time taken to set up a router or spindle moulder...buying or making cutters to suit the shape and the noise and mess it makes is simply not worth it...hence..this type of finish is not used at all...or if it is...it is pre-cut in a factory.

For bespoke furniture...the skill and finish on this type of work is still valued...even the "handmade" appearance is part of the beauty of the finished work.

There is simply nothing like the look of handmade dovetails over those made by a machine...most people have that view.

So for mass produced replicated furniture made at a price...I see the point...but for one-off pieces made with care and time...I think the old methods are without doubt all part of the magic.

I just bought another wreck...but a Gabriel wreck...from FleaBay and look forward to fixing it for more work and passing it on to other generations to follow me...after I make my little contribution to a one-off piece of furniture...my first and probably only one.

I don't think we can use these tools and measure the cost...just the fun. If this be in the realms of "amateur" craftsmen...so be it.


Jim

 

[andersonec]

also, the standard of craftsmanship expected of fine furniture makers in this day and age, is actually higher than the old days too.

Mike.

:?: :?: :?: :?:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Thomas ... 24&bih=653

Considering the tools they were using over two hundred years ago.


Andy

Nice, and I wasn't saying different. But how were their tools different? My tenon saw is more or less the same but probably inferior! Chisels, planes saws, all not changed for centuries. And did you know the spindle moulder was inventd in the 1790's.

Ask the Barnsley workshop whether their output today is superior to that of Sidney and Edward, Gimson and Waals etc. They will say it certainly is. Just as the tools become more advanced so do expectations. And if you think the best craftsmen of today are in any way inferior, then look around at some of the better contemporary furniture makers today. Some of the stuff they do pushes boudaries that were never imagined a few years ago and the standard of workmanship inconceivable. Even things like seasonal movement in centrally heated homes is a difficulty they did not have to contend with, or the often intractable timber that is used these days, (probably because the craftsmen of yesteryear used all the good stuff without regard for the future, as we have to do nowadays) I'm all for celebrating the past, but there is no need to think less of todays craftsmen whilst doing it, that is all I'm saying.

Mike.

Mike,
You seem to be misinterpreting what I am saying, I am not saying the modern craftsman is inferior what I am saying is that the craftsmen of 200 hundred years ago were producing some stunning pieces of furniture without the modern technology that is available today, no cnc routing, no computer controlled machinery, no steel planes made to enth of a though tolerances, no kiln dried timber, no electricity for lighting (I hope that spindle molder wasn't electrically driven in 1790)

I don't think the need for timber has changed that much if the amount of illegal logging in the rain forest is anything to go by.

Andy