tenon or dovetail saw

[Jacob]

......By all means treat yourself to LN chisels if thats what you want, but beginner or expert, they won't make any difference to your woodwork, if you have access to some ordinary tools and sharpening facilities.

That is not necessarily true IMHO, but again your experiences may vary from my own and other peoples too... It's nice to have varying opinions and they are all valid, yours and mine included. There is definitely more than one way to skin a cat! :ho2

Not necessarily true I agree. But probably true. For most people and most kinds of work.
Just being boringly realistic!

 

[JakeS]

If a beginner is going to save himself money on anything, wood is exactly where it would be smarter. I practiced cutting dovetails in cheap pine and poplar long before I started making pieces out of much more expensive woods...

Conversely, I'd say that if a beginner is going to get put off woodworking by anything, it's more likely to be how hard it is to get half-decent results with woods like pine than being able to tell the difference between a top-end chisel and a not-atrocious cheaper one! The difference sawing, chiselling and otherwise shaping a decent hardwood compared to pine is like night and day.

 

[Jacob]

If a beginner is going to save himself money on anything, wood is exactly where it would be smarter. I practiced cutting dovetails in cheap pine and poplar long before I started making pieces out of much more expensive woods...

Conversely, I'd say that if a beginner is going to get put off woodworking by anything, it's more likely to be how hard it is to get half-decent results with woods like pine than being able to tell the difference between a top-end chisel and a not-atrocious cheaper one! The difference sawing, chiselling and otherwise shaping a decent hardwood compared to pine is like night and day.

And the beginner tends to try to buy just enough for the project - all that argy bargy in timber yards with cutting lists and finding that there isn't quite enough, due to cupping etc.
Beginner need to buy several times as much as he estimates and be prepared to waste/experiment with a lot of it, and have a bit of stock left if he's lucky!

PS astonishing that bobbybirds is suggesting economising on wood! A very tooly point of view without a doubt!

 

[Jacob]

.....Jacob - you might want to gently remind your self that Rob actually DOES teach beginners. Surely you of all people don't want to be in the position of an armchair theorist arguing with someone with practical knowledge...

BugBear

What on earth do you mean by "you of all people"?
I am not an armchair theorist. Strictly practical. I was a beginner too. A born again beginner as well. I have a good grasp of what this beginner needed. And am a fairly confident woodworker now. Have been doing it for 30 years (as woodworker only), and twenty years before that as designer/maker mostly wood, and carpenter and builder. Have taught a few too (as workshop assistants etc).
Would you like a photo of my current WIP?

And I'd add - I'm amazed that our own armchair theorist, who as far as we know has never made anything• should trot out this sort of stuff!
•(apologies if this wrong BB but if you do make things you are very shy about it :lol: )

 

[bobbybirds]

If a beginner is going to save himself money on anything, wood is exactly where it would be smarter. I practiced cutting dovetails in cheap pine and poplar long before I started making pieces out of much more expensive woods...

Conversely, I'd say that if a beginner is going to get put off woodworking by anything, it's more likely to be how hard it is to get half-decent results with woods like pine than being able to tell the difference between a top-end chisel and a not-atrocious cheaper one! The difference sawing, chiselling and otherwise shaping a decent hardwood compared to pine is like night and day.

And the beginner tends to try to buy just enough for the project - all that argy bargy in timber yards with cutting lists and finding that there isn't quite enough, due to cupping etc.
Beginner need to buy several times as much as he estimates and be prepared to waste/experiment with a lot of it, and have a bit of stock left if he's lucky!

You bring up a valid point for sure...

Thinking back, I started with a bit different approach than many people who like to woodwork. I actually come from an automotive background, which now thinking about that is another reason why I am on the new, best tools possible mindset as I have always approached it the same way from automotives. Buy once and forever is engrained in me I think. Anyways, turning a hobby into a business made me not enjoy it as a hobby anymore so I sold off all my project cars etc and decided to get into woodworking to work with my hands yet have a more creative outlet.

This process left me time to research and with a decent enough budget I was able to buy many good tools (and some not so good) right out of the gate. Now I had a bunch of tools and no experience other than high school woodworking. So rather than just jumping into projects, I bought some pine, poplar, and a bunch of unfinished flooring bits and spent probably the first 6 months doing nothing but practicing how to use my tools, planing until I was deep in shavings, cutting and chopping DT's until they fit well, sawing them off and going again, etc, etc until I felt confident enough to build a simple box and not be frustrated with how it looked. And I did run into the issue you described of not buying enough wood for the first couple projects! lol

Anyways, not sure where I was going with all this except to maybe say I realise I am far from the most all knowing expert, but the way I approached my learning curve let me try both vintage and new premium (and not so premium) options while I was in full newbie mode, and I found that the better quality new tools always seemed to help me just be a little bit better in the cut and frustrated me just a bit less. It is funny because now I find that I can work with the older, less tuned tools better now that I know what they should feel like once properly tuned...

I should point out I was NOT suggesting one buy cheap, low end wood for a nice project, but for practice purposes instead...

 

[Jacob]

.......and I found that the better quality new tools always seemed to help me just be a little bit better in the cut and frustrated me just a bit less. It is funny because now I find that I can work with the older, less tuned tools better now that I know what they should feel like once properly tuned...

Only a guess - but it's probably because the better quality tools tend to arrive nice and sharp and ready to use. After a time this advantage is lost and the tools are basically as good as the last sharpening.
I agree with your practice approach - waste a lot of wood, it's worth it in the long run!

 

[bobbybirds]

.......and I found that the better quality new tools always seemed to help me just be a little bit better in the cut and frustrated me just a bit less. It is funny because now I find that I can work with the older, less tuned tools better now that I know what they should feel like once properly tuned...

Only a guess - but it's probably because the better quality tools tend to arrive nice and sharp and ready to use. After a time this advantage is lost and the tools are basically as good as the last sharpening.

You are absolutely correct that this was a major factor, but as said, I was then aware of how it was supposed to perform so I knew once I started sharpening where I needed to be...

If someone without experience has the benefit of having someone who knows what they are doing showing them what old tools to buy and how to tune them for initial use etc, then that is awesome, but many of us also get into woodworking without the assistance of friends who are already experienced, and without any knowledge of what to look for, money can just as easily, or more easily, be wasted not getting quality stuff.

Edit - It probably warrants mentioning that in my area, finding really decent used tools is not easy. In Europe I believe you folks will have a whole lot larger pools to pick through for quality vintage pieces. Just realising the direction where a lot of my opinions have been coming from...

 

[bugbear]

.....Jacob - you might want to gently remind your self that Rob actually DOES teach beginners. Surely you of all people don't want to be in the position of an armchair theorist arguing with someone with practical knowledge...

BugBear

What on earth do you mean by "you of all people"?
I am not an armchair theorist. Strictly practical. I was a beginner too. A born again beginner as well. I have a good grasp of what this beginner needed. And am a fairly confident woodworker now. Have been doing it for 30 years (as woodworker only), and twenty years before that as designer/maker mostly wood, and carpenter and builder. Have taught a few too (as workshop assistants etc).
Would you like a photo of my current WIP?

And I'd add - I'm amazed that our own armchair theorist, who as far as we know has never made anything• should trot out this sort of stuff!
•(apologies if this wrong BB but if you do make things you are very shy about it :lol: )

It's almost as if the irony was being deliberately used for comic effect.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Sorry BB I've just realised that you were being ironical in the first place. Well caught!
My excuse is that I do seem to have to spend a lot of time on here being dully defensive.

http://robcosman.com/student_gallery.htm

Looking at RCs balmy army of smiling old chaps each clutching their identical dovetail efforts - yes I'm sure they would have enjoyed the exercise and fiddling and fantasising with some posh tools, but this is not how you learn woodwork in the real world.
Even a brief C&G course is going to be 6 months full time, and that's just the very beginning. Real students are not going to be issued with LN chisels etc for at least two good reasons - first they are not good value for money (as chisels :roll: not as collectibles ), second because they'd all immediately get nicked and traded for whole sets of sensible tools!

 

[Modernist]

Can't say I'm inspired by the proportions of some of the DT in the above gallery. Many of them look a bit steep to me and not too easy on the eye.

Each to their own I suppose and they look as if they enjoyed themselves.

It may just be innate cynicism or a language thing but I find the whole "heirloom" tool concept and Cosmanism thing a bit hard to swallow. After all, through dovetails are not particularly difficult to do after reading a book and a bit of practice. It seems to be more about tool marketing and zippo demo's than cabinetmaking. The cash call for the unfortunate DC didn't help dispel that image but no doubt hoardes will brand me a non-believer, even though I'm very keen on quality effective tools myself.

 

[bugbear]

Can't say I'm inspired by the proportions of some of the DT in the above gallery. Many of them look a bit steep to me and not too easy on the eye.

Each to their own I suppose and they look as if they enjoyed themselves.

I think (assuming my interpretation is the right one) the important thing here is the title "Training the Hand Workshop Photos - First Time Dovetail Examples by Students".

If these are genuinely the first dovetails these students have ever cut, it speaks fairly positively of Cosman's approach.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

...
If these are genuinely the first dovetails these students have ever cut, it speaks fairly positively of Cosman's approach.

BugBear

These guys come to a class that is usually 1 or 2 days long. For the most part they have never cut a joint or even used a saw, most are north of 55 and beginners at best.
So why are they doing dovetails?
It's just woodwork as entertainment. Like the have-a-go stalls you find at craft fairs etc. - the important thing is to have something to take home with you at the end of the day to show your mum (though not with these lads!). Nothing wrong with that but it's not much to do with learning about woodwork.

 

[robcosman]

Sorry BB I've just realised that you were being ironical in the first place. Well caught!
My excuse is that I do seem to have to spend a lot of time on here being dully defensive.

http://robcosman.com/student_gallery.htm

Looking at RCs balmy army of smiling old chaps each clutching their identical dovetail efforts - yes I'm sure they would have enjoyed the exercise and fiddling and fantasising with some posh tools, but this is not how you learn woodwork in the real world.
Even a brief C&G course is going to be 6 months full time, and that's just the very beginning. Real students are not going to be issued with LN chisels etc for at least two good reasons - first they are not good value for money (as chisels :roll: not as collectibles ), second because they'd all immediately get nicked and traded for whole sets of sensible tools!

Jacob I have a lot of experience dealing with children as well and this feels like one of those moments. So here is your dose of "attention". Not sure what world you are living in but the only woodworking going on today is amoung hobbyist. So the smiling "old chaps" represent the vast majority who are buying the tools , reading the magazines and who are keeping what is left of hand tool work alive. You need to be a bit more respectful, Brian included.
The students in question are not encouraged to fiddle and fantasize. The tail board has to be cut without flaw, no repairs. We have them start over instead of fixing mistakes. Once the tail board is complete, everything but the base line coming straight from the saw, they transfer tails to pins and saw the pins. Here again we dont allow paring, it has to come from the saw or they do it again. I think the results speak for themselves. My point was to show how good tools can offset excessive practise. You scoff, I prove! Some of these guys are in thier 80's and learning to cut dovetails for the first time. They are looking to make a few boxes, maybe some chests of drawers. The best part is they walk away after a one or two day class believing they can do it. This inspires many to persue it much more seriously. Your contribution - you sit in front of your keyboard and nit pick. I can hear that lump of coal hitting the bottom of an empty stocking!
Merry Christmas Scrouge!
Rob Cosman

 

[robcosman]

Can't say I'm inspired by the proportions of some of the DT in the above gallery. Many of them look a bit steep to me and not too easy on the eye.

Each to their own I suppose and they look as if they enjoyed themselves.

It may just be innate cynicism or a language thing but I find the whole "heirloom" tool concept and Cosmanism thing a bit hard to swallow. After all, through dovetails are not particularly difficult to do after reading a book and a bit of practice. It seems to be more about tool marketing and zippo demo's than cabinetmaking. The cash call for the unfortunate DC didn't help dispel that image but no doubt hoardes will brand me a non-believer, even though I'm very keen on quality effective tools myself.

Hey Brian, Tom Lie-Nielsen, Ron Hock, Frank Beyers, Highland Hardware, Woodcraft Supply and others all stepped in to help DC who at the time was near death in hospital. I spoke to several of these folks before we went public to get help for someone that has given to the woodworking community for years. I find your mean spirited use of the term "cash call" highly offensive and I dont know why it has not been removed. I hope others on this forum will speak thier mind and put you in your place. Dont even expect a lump of coal.
Rob Cosman

 

[bobbybirds]

It may just be innate cynicism or a language thing but I find the whole "heirloom" tool concept and Cosmanism thing a bit hard to swallow. After all, through dovetails are not particularly difficult to do after reading a book and a bit of practice. It seems to be more about tool marketing and zippo demo's than cabinetmaking. The cash call for the unfortunate DC didn't help dispel that image but no doubt hoardes will brand me a non-believer, even though I'm very keen on quality effective tools myself.

Hey Brian, Tom Lie-Nielsen, Ron Hock, Frank Beyers, Highland Hardware, Woodcraft Supply and others all stepped in to help DC who at the time was near death in hospital. I spoke to several of these folks before we went public to get help for someone that has given to the woodworking community for years. I find your mean spirited use of the term "cash call" highly offensive and I dont know why it has not been removed. I hope others on this forum will speak thier mind and put you in your place. Dont even expect a lump of coal.
Rob Cosman

People try and help someone who has given an incredible amount to the woodworking community, and it gets thrown back in their face? I only hope that if I were in DC's position my friends would do so much...

I truly pray you never end up in the same spot as David and have to require the help of a community to get you through it.

 

[RogerS]

Jacob

Why are you contradicting yourself all the time?

If you are sincerely interested in helping people.......especially those new to woodworking ......then why do you state on Dec 3rd that Matthew's Atkinson-Walker would be a good starter and then a couple of weeks later you go and say the opposite Hence the Atkinson Walker saw (nasty, expensive, blunt, a mistake) ? Anyone bothering to listen to your ramblings knows better and won't follow your 'advice' but I do feel some sympathy for anyone new to the forum and woodworking being taken in by you.

 

[bugbear]

It's just woodwork as entertainment.

Yes, you really do seem to object to that quite strongly. :lol: :lol: :lol:

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Jacob

Why are you contradicting yourself all the time?

If you are sincerely interested in helping people.......especially those new to woodworking ......then why do you state on Dec 3rd that Matthew's Atkinson-Walker would be a good starter and then a couple of weeks later you go and say the opposite Hence the Atkinson Walker saw (nasty, expensive, blunt, a mistake) ? Anyone bothering to listen to your ramblings knows better and won't follow your 'advice' but I do feel some sympathy for anyone new to the forum and woodworking being taken in by you.

Changed my mind having thought about it for a bit. Sorry for the confusion! But that's the whole point of having discussions - you are pressed to think about things and be a bit more critical of your own position as well as everybody elses.

 

[RogerS]

Jacob

Why are you contradicting yourself all the time?

If you are sincerely interested in helping people.......especially those new to woodworking ......then why do you state on Dec 3rd that Matthew's Atkinson-Walker would be a good starter and then a couple of weeks later you go and say the opposite Hence the Atkinson Walker saw (nasty, expensive, blunt, a mistake) ? Anyone bothering to listen to your ramblings knows better and won't follow your 'advice' but I do feel some sympathy for anyone new to the forum and woodworking being taken in by you.

Changed my mind having thought about it for a bit. Sorry for the confusion! But that's the whole point of having discussions - you are pressed to think about things and be a bit more critical of your own position as well as everybody elses.

Nothing wrong with that approach Jacob but, in that case, perhaps you should give a health warning with all your 'pearls of wisdom'? Just so that anyone new to the forum doesn't get misled, you understand.

 

[Jacob]

......................
People try and help someone who has given an incredible amount to the woodworking community, and it gets thrown back in their face? I only hope that if I were in DC's position my friends would do so much...

I truly pray you never end up in the same spot as David and have to require the help of a community to get you through it.

But there are always others on this forum going through the same or worse. There is no precedent for a whip round; it did seem very odd, especially being asked to buy DVDs. Not that we don't sympathise with DC and his illness.
Maybe it should be a regular item? Whip round of the week, for struggling forum members, or other good causes?