tenon or dovetail saw

[Paul Chapman]

I can still remember the difficulty trying to cut tenon cheeks with a cross cut saw at school. It would wander off at the slightest provocation and was very slow. A rip is a different animal here.

Agreed. I really can't understand why some recommend a cross cut saw for beginners as if it's some sort of super, general-purpose saw. A cross cut saw used along the grain is slow and inefficient and the tooth arrangement prevents the sawdust clearing efficiently.

Although at one time most dovetail and tenon saws tended to be supplied as cross cut, I bet a lot of users re-filed them to rip - doesn't take a lot to work out that it would cut better along the grain that way. And sharpening would be easier too.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bosshogg]

I have a 10" dovetail, sharpened to a rip teeth, which I use for cutting both with and against the grain. It cuts quicker and cleaner than crosscut teeth and if you keep the set of the teeth down to the minimum, will cut a beautiful straight line. You must spend time practising starting the cut to get it in line, once done you simply saw. A little bit of soap from a bar of, works wonders...bosshogg

Imagination is more important than knowledge...
Albert Einstein (hammer)

 

[woodbrains]

If I was going to recommend a tenon saw to start it might be better to be a bit finer than 10pt, especially if it was going to be used for dovetails.

I can still remember the difficulty trying to cut tenon cheeks with a cross cut saw at school. It would wander off at the slightest provocation and was very slow. A rip is a different animal here.

Hi.

I was referring to a 10 inch bladed saw not 10 tpi if that clears things up. Most English 10inch dovetail saws hav in the order of 20tpi which could argueably be too fine in rip, but works well enough. I like them O.K. but the American's do variants with as few as 9 tpi and these cut like the wind, though obviously are not much use for shoulder cutting. Part of the reason that poor saws or even good crosscut saws don't do well for ripping is their lack of speed. If you can cut to the baseline in 5 strokes you will not have wandered anywhere like as far off the intended line, as if it took 25 strokes to do the same.

British 10 inch tenon saws are usually about 12-13 tpi. It is the set which makes these less useful for dovetails. it is too radical for the fine work involved here as they are intended to cut deeper, where more set is an advantage. I find a 10 inch dovetail saw too short for it's intended use, hence my recommendation for a 10 inch dovetail. These will do perfect 'tails and double up as a great tenon saw for the smallish tenons that you would expect a small tenon saw to do. I prefer a 12 or even 14 inch tenon for doing tenons, though I have to admit, that is not often these days. I remember having an antique backsaw which was at least 16 inches long, possibly 18 with a tapered blade. It was an absolute dream for big carcase tenons, but unfortunately seemed to go astray somwhere along the line. Pity.

Mike.

 

[woodbrains]

Hi,

.

Very often they could make their tat work, which motivates them to go on and improve, which eventually will mean getting better kit.
Conversely there will be many who have had access to the best kit available and still couldn't do it.
In both cases it's a question of putting the time in and being committed, ideally with the right bit of help in the background.
With woodwork tools sharpening is number one, the quality of the tool being a long way behind. In use, a sharp but rubbish quality chisel is streets ahead of a blunt but top quality equivalent. Sharpen them both equally and in use the difference is very small. Ditto saws. Ditto planes perhaps, though some are best avoided!
I think the emphasis on tool quality in these forums could be misleading for a beginner, and the emphasis on complicated sharpening procedures could put them off for life!

As usual, Jacob is comparing apples with oranges and thinking this proves a point. If a raw beginner who cannot play a chord wants to play guitar, then buying one for a couple of hundred quid is a good place to start. The frets will be in the right place, it will stay in tune, you could learn on that. You do not have to spend 10 grand on a Martin from the off. However, you cannot learn to play violin buy buying a bass guitar, because some moron advises you that it has four strings just the same and they are cheaper. You have to have the right tool for the job. The best bit here is that top quality tools for us are only in the order of 2 or 3 times the price of the rubbish. We do not have to pay for the equivalent of a Martin to get good results. A poor saw is like trying to play a guitar which does not have the frets in the right place; even Segovia could not make music on that and a relative beginner would fail never to try again because they would not know that it was the guitar and not them which is at fault.

Sharpening is another reason beginners fail, but not because sharpening regimes are difficult; because their tools are dull. I do not have complex sharpening techniques, but I do sharpen to a mirror polish, and I fully realise that stopping at a relatively coarse grit stone and deluding myself (completely incorrectly) that old timers did it like that, will not make the tools sharp.

The other point that is completely lost on Jacob is that we are all contributing to a woodwork forum; we LIKE tools and we LIKE to do good work. Owning fine tools is something we enjoy (with an obvious exception) and using them gives us a sense of achievement. No one will give us credit, least of all ourselves, for doing almost good work because the tools were only mediocre and it would have been better, honest, if I only had.... Life is too short to waste time on futile pursuits and excuses.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Bit of a bad tempered rant there. Can't be bothered to pick it apart. Yawn.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Can't be bothered to pick it apart.

That's a relief.......... :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[pedder]

If one is prepared to learn sharpening saws, the cheapest way to a quiite good saw is ebay Spear & Jackson 10" 14 tpi (most modern saws have 14 tpi). E.G.: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUALITY-SPEAR ... 231715c16d

Sharp them at 20° rake and 0° fleam and you get a universal saw. 10 GBP for the saw another ten for the file et voilà.

If one wants to work with wood instead of steel, the Veritas rip carcass saw is the very best saw for a beginner and best bang for the money. I really would like to suggest modern english saws, but the few I had in my shop had wayyyyy to much set to saw good. But one could certainly de-set a saw.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[Jacob]

If one is prepared to learn sharpening saws, the cheapest way to a quiite good saw is ebay Spear & Jackson 10" 14 tpi (most modern saws have 14 tpi). E.G.: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUALITY-SPEAR ... 231715c16d

Sharp them at 20° rake and 0° fleam and you get a universal saw. 10 GBP for the saw another ten for the file et voilà.

Nice saw.
I think that's good advice, and whilst you are at it on ebay might as well pick up one or two more cheapos for practice. You can get 4 or 5 not too bad saws for the price of one new one

If one wants to work with wood instead of steel, the Veritas rip carcass saw is the very best saw for a beginner and best bang for the money.

Outa the box is good - except quite soon you are going to have to sharpen and a bit later to set. You might as well start with a cheaper 2nd hand english saw and learn the full routine from scratch - or send to saw doctor, as many people do. You can't avoid either working with steel, or getting somebody else to do it for you.

 

[pedder]

Outa the box is good - except quite soon you are going to have to sharpen and a bit later to set.

Yes, but then you know what you want. One of the hardest points. But I've yet to buy a premium saw.

Cheers Pedder

 

[condeesteso]

Jacob - just a minor point. First you say the best DT saws are Spear & Jackson or Footprint. Then you say you don't have a dovetail saw, the 2 DT saws you have are both cross-cut.
Those are not the best dovetail saws, and your cross-cuts aren't DT saws at all. What kind of advice is this?

 

[Jacob]

Jacob - just a minor point. First you say the best DT saws are Spear & Jackson or Footprint. Then you say you don't have a dovetail saw, the 2 DT saws you have are both cross-cut.
Those are not the best dovetail saws, and your cross-cuts aren't DT saws at all. What kind of advice is this?

A "dovetail saw" is a saw used for cutting DTs (obviously) but there isn't a tight official definition. It can be long, short, crosscut, rip cut, somewhere in between, backed, backless, "Gents", japanese even.
As it happens a backsaw between 8 and 10" with about 15tpi or more, is the most favoured for DTs and hence is known generally as a DT saw.
I've got three that fit this spec , all 8" , about 0.5mm thick blades, 18/20 tpi.
Two are old S&Js , the third is a new Atkinson Walker which I bought to see if I was missing anything (answer - nothing much, the S&Js are identical but have slightly better handles). They are all as good as you get IMHO and the difference with posher ones is largely cosmetic, especially in the handle area. 2 of them are cross cut one is rip cut.
I've also got an old 12" Tyzack tenon saw ("tenon" again is only a loose term) with 15tpi so this will do fine for DTs in thicker material say 1/2" +. I think of it as a DT saw.
Err, that's it!

Come to think these various saws are not just (loosely) matched with a function, but also with the size of workpiece. The common 8" DT saw is ideal for DTs in the common drawer side thickness of 3/8" to 5/16". You could use it for crosscutting small stuff too, nobody will mind!


PS my two S&Js have have 44 and 48mm of blade width but the Atkinson has 57mm. The narrower blade seems better in use and I wonder if they started life as 2" and the Atkinson is too wide?
I think I'll ebay the Atkinson while it still looks new.

 

[Racers]

Jacob

Didn't the orignal poster want a dovetail saw? is your Atkinson and Walker a rip cut? you could sell it to him if it is.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Jacob

Didn't the orignal poster want a dovetail saw? is your Atkinson and Walker a rip cut? you could sell it to him if it is.

Pete

Thanks I'll bear it in mind.
Actually just having had a closer look at it it's an ugly beast. I don't normally complain about appearances but the handle on this saw is basically a plank with a hole in it, and is not nice to use. Changed my mind - don't buy Atkinson Walker saws!
Actually he is asking about tenons as well, hence the comments on general purpose saws.
Nice one here went for peanuts, but there'll be plenty more along.
I was talking to a box and model maker recently and for fine dovetails he uses a junior hacksaw! Hmm might have a go. As long as it's sharp. :shock: Then what about sharpening a 6" nail for a chisel? I don't see why not.

PS we are lucky to live in an time when good quality second hand tools have never been so plentiful and so cheap. It's bit insane to buy new, unless you are desperate.

 

[Modernist]

Jacob

Didn't the orignal poster want a dovetail saw? is your Atkinson and Walker a rip cut? you could sell it to him if it is.

Pete

Thanks I'll bear it in mind.
Actually just having had a closer look at it it's an ugly beast. I don't normally complain about appearances but the handle on this saw is basically a plank with a hole in it, and is not nice to use. Changed my mind - don't buy Atkinson Walker saws!
Actually he is asking about tenons as well, hence the comments on general purpose saws.
Nice one here went for peanuts, but there'll be plenty more along.
I was talking to a box and model maker recently and for fine dovetails he uses a junior hacksaw! Hmm might have a go. As long as it's sharp. :shock: Then what about sharpening a 6" nail for a chisel? I don't see why not.

PS we are lucky to live in an time when good quality second hand tools have never been so plentiful and so cheap. It's bit insane to buy new, unless you are desperate.

The obvious answer be it S & J from the 80's with good blades but dire handles (purplish varnish) or a current At W is to rehandle to a traditional pattern and get the best of all worlds.

 

[Jacob]

........
The obvious answer be it S & J from the 80's with good blades but dire handles (purplish varnish) or a current At W is to rehandle to a traditional pattern and get the best of all worlds.

Or just rasp off the sharp edges and clean up with sandpaper. "Hand stitched" rasp of course. :shock:
Actually I quite like that modern handle on the S&J linked above. Trim design and perfectly comfortable - I've got one like it. But my AW is another thing altogether.

Idling about, I just tried out a junior hacksaw on a 7mm sycamore board and it does a very clean perfect cut along the grain. Ideal for DTs in thin stuff IMHO. 30 ish tpi makes it a bit slow but still usable. Blade is 0.5mm same as most DT saws.
I'll have a go at nail-as-chisel next, but I'd better do some real work first.

 

[Modernist]

Actually I quite like that modern handle on the S&J linked above. Trim design and perfectly comfortable - I've got one like it. But my AW is another thing altogether.

"Eye of the beholder" et al. My joy at seeing my S & J handles turned into energy was unconfined. Not only was the appearance poor but I thought the position on the blade was wrong. It was an entirely different grip on the Disston I used as a pattern for the replacement and much better.

 

[Jacob]

Excited by this thread so I just got this from ebay arrived this morning.
It's actually a very good saw. Nicely made, heavy, well finished, good comfortable handle. I'd say top quality.
Cheap, even though I paid over the odds; same thing goes for as little as £2 if you hang on in.
Whats the point in paying 10 or more times as much for a modern but inferior saw?

 

[andy king]

Whats the point in paying 10 or more times as much for a modern but inferior saw?

Dunno. You tell us, you bought an Atkinson Walker one a while back.

Andy

 

[bugbear]

It's actually a very good saw. Nicely made, heavy, well finished, good comfortable handle. I'd say top quality.

Sounds a bit tooly to me. :lol:

BugBear

 

[robcosman]

Interesting thread, Mike I think you are right on in every point if my support matters. I teach hand joinery for a living and to say the tools are not the key is misguided. I go so far as to say when cutting dovetails, it"s 70% tools, 20% technique and only 10% practise. I can see the eyebrows raising! Here is my proof if I am allowed to use this link http://robcosman.com/student_gallery.htm These guys come to a class that is usually 1 or 2 days long. For the most part they have never cut a joint or even used a saw, most are north of 55 and beginners at best. The joints you see have to be assembled from the saw, not pared to fit. There is no test fitting, they can only assemble it once and it gets glued at that time, this way they learn to measure, mark, saw and chisel accuratley. It may not be the final word but I think there is enough evidence here to prove the point. If you buy a good saw and there are lots of them availabe, like Mike said, you only buy once. If it comes properly sharpened and set then the beginner is not having to learn those skills before he gets to what he wants, cutting dovetails. There is a lot to be said for having early success. Good saws make straight joinable cuts, you need only learn to aim and push/pull. Better tools tend to be more comfortable and balanced, these get used the others get avoided.
It bothers me as well to see the kind of advice often given by those cheapskates who think it's a crime to spend money on tools. The more poeple that get into this craft the better it will be for all of us. Having them buy good tools first is the best way of keeping them interested, my opinion. I recently golfed with some really nice clubs, all I can say is "WOW".
Merry Christmas!
Rob Cosman