Table saw refurb- kity 618

[marcros]

I have got my kity 618 back home and have been starting to plan the mods it will have. The first job was to get the saw working as it should. Everything works but the ride and fall was very stiff.

I lubricated it with a little oil and it must have caked the dust into a solid mass because it wouldn't budge at all. I knew it was the wrong thing to use but in the absence of anything better I hoped to get away with it.

Then, ping the pin holding a gear to the handle dropped in half.

I have taken the top off and all access panels. The machine inside seems well built- I am impressed by the quality. I eventually got to the problem part and replaced the roll pin with one from a cheap set from wilco motor save. Reassembled, tested and it worked fine. Tested a bit more and it got a little stiff, and the replacement pin broke. I need to see what is making it stiff but I didn't apply much force (this time!). I suspect that something is nipped up a bit tight- there are a number of things that need to allow movement and it isn't always obvious what.

I have found a quicker way to get to the problem part now.

The rise and fall is a long lead screw with a gear on the end. This meshes at right angles to another gear which is attached to the handle. The pin has sheared leaving the centre in the handle shaft and the 2 ends in the gear.

Are all roll pins created equal- I am reluctant to keep using the same if I have just bought rubbish ones. Can I do anything better- thread lock the components and then pin them? Have I done anything wrong here- it was a snug fit- I had to tap the pin in and punch/pull it out when broken.

 

[trsleigh]

I've had a 618 for donkey's years. Approx every 10 years the rise/fall becomes really stiff. I initially tried oiling etc but the only cure in my experience ( at least for the next ten years ) is to completlety remove the motor mounting trunnion / rise & fall assembly, then strip down all components inolved in the rise & fall. The stiffness seems to be at any alloy to steel surface so look at the long lead screw area and the sliding surfaces at the far end. Once reassembled you'll be good for the next decade.

N.B. This is from memory from about ten years ago. I've only had to do it twice so far so should be due for another strip down soon.

 

[marcros]

can you remember how to get that lead screw assembly out?

I took the whole motor assembly out, which is basically everything except a bracket and includes the rise and fall, but I couldn't see how to separate the lead screw. There was so much duct caked into the gears at the bottom, I assumed that would be the problem. However an alloy to steel surface makes sense- there is hardly anything else it can be.

I was going to put up with it, until it siezed. But I want to do it properly so that it isn't annoying every time i use it.

 

[trsleigh]

can you remember how to get that lead screw assembly out?

I took the whole motor assembly out, which is basically everything except a bracket and includes the rise and fall, but I couldn't see how to separate the lead screw. There was so much duct caked into the gears at the bottom, I assumed that would be the problem. However an alloy to steel surface makes sense- there is hardly anything else it can be.

I was going to put up with it, until it siezed. But I want to do it properly so that it isn't annoying every time i use it.

Sorry, too long ago. But I do remember on re-assembly that the gap on the sliding mechanism at the far end ( ie away from the leadscrew end ) is quite critical to get just right.

 

[marcros]

That makes sense- I thought it was a funny arrangement and would have been much better with bearings instead.

I am wondering whether replacing the roll pin with a steel dowel might be an option, and then playing with the adjustment in the various places. When disassembles, the alloy/steel section slid up and down, so I am wondering if something is nipped up a bit tight. The handle part cant be at fault, because it is only a shaft with a gear on. If this doesnt fix it, the pin needs replacing anyway (so is not time wasted), and it will only take a few minutes to take that shaft and wheel back out again.

 

[rspsteve]

where are the pics?

Dont want to fit a sliding table to it do you ? i have the 2 metre runer sliding table and half of the mitre gauge that fits to the table .

Steve

 

[marcros]

I could take a few if you want later on. It might help anybody in the future. I am impressed with the saw underneath- seems well made.

I dont know about the sliding table. is it for rip cutting or cross cutting? I had a sliding carriage on my old saw nd it was useful, but have since got a RAS for cross cutting. I dont have room at present to use it, but one of these days my workshop may get rebuilt a bit bigger!

 

[rspsteve]

Its a sliding carriage for ripping or cross cutting larger panels i splashed out on a complete assembly off a schappach presisa 3.0 and am currently trying to make it fit my kity ..so the original bits a surplus ,the rail is very very heavy aluminum if you google it you can see what i mean.

If its any good to anyone they can have all the parts i have for £50 collected

Steve

 

[marcros]

I see what you mean on google- not quite what I was after. I really like the sliding tables on things like the wadkin PK and the hammer machines- just for cutting down wayney timber.

 

[marcros]

I've had a 618 for donkey's years. Approx every 10 years the rise/fall becomes really stiff. I initially tried oiling etc but the only cure in my experience ( at least for the next ten years ) is to completlety remove the motor mounting trunnion / rise & fall assembly, then strip down all components inolved in the rise & fall. The stiffness seems to be at any alloy to steel surface so look at the long lead screw area and the sliding surfaces at the far end. Once reassembled you'll be good for the next decade.

N.B. This is from memory from about ten years ago. I've only had to do it twice so far so should be due for another strip down soon.

you were spot on with your diagnosis. smooth as anything now, and on to the next stage of the mods. I stripped down the whole lead screw, which didnt look too filthy, but must have been. easy enough when i worked out how it came off.

I have looked at the mitre slots, with a view to having them opened up to a "standard" 3/4" x 3/8" but I don't have the faith that there is enough casting to do it (have it done). I will machine up a piece of aluminium for the gauge I have in due course.

The next part to look at it the beismeyer fence system, which I already have, and work out how to support the rails- i will sketch out a diagram tomorrow for assistance.

 

[The Bear]

If it helps, on the unisaw the angle iron which supports the rail is just bolted to the side of the cast iron top. Nothing fancy. There are then legs which screw under the right hand extension to provide support, though the saw has enough bulk that they are not really needed.
Mark

 

[marcros]

That would work if it wasn't for the height differences that I need to overcome.

The fence needs a 50x 50mm box section to run against and clamp to. This therefore needs to be held from beneath or to bigger and allow 50mm clear above any fixings. I am not making it clear but I hope a sketch will do so.

I have a couple of ideas but am not sure how strong they would be. I have no experience of metals in terms of strength and thickness.

 

[The Bear]

If you need a photo of how its supposed to be attached let me know and I'll take one, though it seems you might need to gash something together. The box section rail is supported by the angle underneith which is in turn bolted to the side of the cast top, when attached how it was designed to be. This is rock solid.

Mark

 

[marcros]

i think it will be a gash something together job.

The fixed parameters are that I need box section 50mm or 2" wide, and a clear section of it 2" high to accommodate the runner on the fence. It needs to be set a few mm below the table- I quickly measured 7mm last night, but ideally it will have a mm or two of adjustment available.

The thoughts that I have had so far, is to add a piece of 10mm (or 15mm, or whatever it needs to be) material to the bottom of the lip of the cast top, but then I have the question of how to fix the angle to that (tap it maybe?), or to use 75mm x 50mm box section but that is starting to sound very heavy.

 

[marcros]

An alternative might be to use some angle iron underneath the top, and a second piece underneath the rail, almost like a T section, but offset. This has the advantage of being off the shelf, adjustable, and can carry the router table extension on top of the inner piece.

 

[The Bear]

Did you get the front and rear angle rails as well as the box rail with your fence?

From your diagram it looks like the front edge of the top is not flat, some piece sticking out at the bottom? If the sticky out bit is just a couple of lugs as per my kity bandsaw I'd be tempted to cut them off to make the front flat. If that sticky out bit runs along the whole length of the front I'd make an infill piece to sit on top of it and make the front flat.
With the front flat you can then drill through and fix the angle rails as the manufacturer intended. Box rail is then fastened to the angle leaving the clearance you need to clamp down.

Only other thing I would add is to have a look how you square the mitre slot to the blade. Does it involve adjusting the top rather than the blade as per most American saws. If so the rails are very heavy and hang from the top. I notice you said the top is aluminium you will need to be confident the top is strong enough to carry the whole rail assembly without distorting it and pulling it out of square

Hope that helps

Here's a photo of mine

 

[marcros]

Did you get the front and rear angle rails as well as the box rail with your fence?

No, just the fence

From your diagram it looks like the front edge of the top is not flat, some piece sticking out at the bottom? If the sticky out bit is just a couple of lugs as per my kity bandsaw I'd be tempted to cut them off to make the front flat. If that sticky out bit runs along the whole length of the front I'd make an infill piece to sit on top of it and make the front flat.

No, they run the whole length front and back. The kity rail slot under them.

With the front flat you can then drill through and fix the angle rails as the manufacturer intended. Box rail is then fastened to the angle leaving the clearance you need to clamp down.

This would work I think. The lip on my saw has 3 or 4 lot holes in. Would you tap the filler piece and bolt from the underside? How thick would the filler piece need to be to tap from the front to hold the angle? Would aluminium do- I am not hugely confident of tapping steel!

Only other thing I would add is to have a look how you square the mitre slot to the blade. Does it involve adjusting the top rather than the blade as per most American saws. If so the rails are very heavy and hang from the top. I notice you said the top is aluminium you will need to be confident the top is strong enough to carry the whole rail assembly without distorting it and pulling it out of square

the adjustment is on the top itself. It seems that any adjustability is on the bolt holes. It is fixed with 6 countersunk bolts onto the frame. And i havent fixed it down yet- i need to get some m5 nuts to fix a plate on and it is easier with the top off. The rails will hang from the top. It feels pretty robust, but I have to admit the weight of rails had concerned me a bit. Would aluminium rails and box be strong enough?

Hope that helps

it does, thank you.

This saw has a cut depth of 95mm, which is part of the reason that I bought it. My father is after something, and I have put a wanted ad in the forum. Having just been mailed about a startrite tilt arbour, i am tempted to give him this one, with factory issue fence, sell my extra bits, and have a look at the startrite, albeit with less depth of cut.

 

[The Bear]

This is what I'd do, basically because this is how it's supposed to attach. I'd just bolt all the way through the infill, that's how mines done (minus the infill). The box is tapped and bolted on because you obviously can't get a nut on in the middle of it. No idea about the aluminium strength, as you know the fence is heavy steal and so are the biesmeyer rails which give it so much solidity.

Mark

 

[marcros]

I need to check then that there is sufficient meat in the casting but I think that there should be.

 

[crampy]

Marcos, I have had exactly the same thing happen to my 618 only yesterday. The roll pin snapped so I took the top off and had a look. The problem is I'm not sure how to get access to the cog to repave the roll pin. what exactly did you do?

Hope you can help, sorry if its a silly question I'm relatively new to woodworking and and very new to tool breakdown.