suppliers for laminate worktop and edging?

[Digizz]

I'm just about to start designing and building a portable cocktail bar for an event we're holding. It's a fairly simple worktop design on a three part panel base (or at least it is so far!). It'll be something similar to:

http://www.thecocktailbarcompany.co.uk/gatsby_bars.html

The top is a round ended laminate worktop but with a thick look to it.

I'll probably go for a contemporary shiny block colour.

So, I was wondering what suppliers you'd recommend for the worktop - I'd be open to laminating myself or using a ready laminated board and edging. Obviously, I'd need a largeish edge strip to achieve the 40-50+ mm think effect.

Oh, and budget as very tight, so cheap is good - It'd only get very occasional use after the main event.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Paul.

 

[jasonB]

Omega tops come in 60mm http://www.bushboard.co.uk/range.asp?range=omega

Getalite also do some nice thick edgings to match their laminates and also contrasts like metal effect and one that looks like layers of plywood.

But it may be cheaper to glue up a few layers of board and just stick laminate to them.

Jason

 

[Digizz]

Thanks Jason,

Where would I look if going the DIY laminate route - i.e. what would the products be called? (laminate?)

Thanks.

 

[jasonB]

Laminate or "high pressure laminate" is the correct term. Formica will give you the most likely results but there are many others. You can for example ger MFC, MFMDF (1 & 2 Sided), laminate all in matching colours/patterns with a variety of textures forom a number of makers such as Kronospan, and Egger.

This will give you an idea of whats available, they send samples next day, should be able to get it from someone like Edens

Jason

 

[busy builder]

if you want cheap worktop whats wrong with kitchen worktop ? eg B & Q ?

 

[pren]

Hey Paul.

Just wondering, is laminating your only option? I was thinking you could make the top out of 18mm MDF with some 42mm ribs underneath for strength.

A strip of fleixible MDF could then be glued at 90degrees to follow the ends of the ribs to produce the depth. Some 9mm MDF could then be glued to the underside of the ribs to make it more solid.

With a good primer, spray job and laquer; I'd say it would work out ok.

Just my thoughts.

Bryn 8)

 

[Digizz]

Thanks guys, I always get such good replies on this forum

I don't think spraying would be good for me as I don't have the kit - laminating or buying cheap worktop from B+Q etc may be better.

I do like the option of laminating myself as this might give me a better result??? especially with the shape I want - if i use existing worktop, i'd have to cut the end arcs and then fit edging, blending with existing, which may be difficult (unless I cut the original edge off and fit new one piece edging all the way around?

Do B&Q etc, sell very long strips/rolls for their worktops I wonder?

The laminate option wasn't too badly priced though...

 

[Digizz]

oh, if I do go the laminate myself route, is there a common best practise for bonding to MDF i.e. what adhesives and techniques should be used?

Thanks.

 

[jasonB]

Contact adhesive and a "J" roller to press it down well & expell any air.

I would do the bottom first, then the sides and finally the top (must do Top & Bottom to keep it balanced)

JAson

 

[Shultzy]

A good tip for laying large sheets of laminate is after the adhesive has dried, lay sheets of newspaper over the base then lay the laminate on top. Adjust the laminate to the correct position, put heavy weights in one end, lift other end and remove a sheet of paper. Press down with a roller then lift the other end and remove the remaining paper and roll down over all of the sheet.

 

[hpl]

Hi Paul
I often laminate worktops for exhibition stands and we usually use 18mm chipboard as it is the lightest, cheapest material. We only laminate the sides and the top and although the tops are stored in shipping containers, i.e. not in a dry house, they don't warp. With it being indoors you may need a balancer as the substrate may shrink, which they don't seem to do the way we store them, or maybe it's the chipboard? We also only make the outside 50-60mm of the top the full thickness.
Would agree with Jason on the order of laminating and using contact adhesive. We use a similar method to Shultzy, but use strips of timber placed a suitable distance apart to stop the laminate touching the top until you want it to. Remove a piece of timber from one end, press the laminate onto the top and then continue removing the pieces of timber one at a time, making sure you work consistently down the top to remove the air. Then press very well with a roller, it seems to be the pressure that gives the strong joint.
We have found that with many of the contact adhesives it is best to not let them dry out too much or they don't stick together properly. They would probably be too wet for us to use paper between. I would be interested to know which brand you use Shultzy that allows you to let it dry enough to put paper between as that could be a useful tip.
We normally make the laminate about 50mm over size all round and then pre-trim the edge with an angle grinder with a very thin disc, <1mm, the discs are sold for cutting stainless steel. We then final trim the laminate to size using a router with a suitable edge trimming cutter. Can also be trimmed with a stanley knife and a file, it just takes longer and more care is needed to get the stanley to run where you want it to.
On the strip for the edge, we always cut them from the main sheet of laminate.
Can't help on stockists as we use a local company, but mostly use formica sheets.
Laminate is much harder wearing than paint and it will be easier to do your own rather than cutting down a worktop, or so I think.

Sorry for the long post but hope it helps

Johnny B

 

[Shultzy]

Johnny, I used Evo-stik. This was about 30 years ago so they may have changed the formula since then. It just needs to be touch dry so as not to stick to the paper. As for cutting the laminate there used to be shears (made by Eclipse?) available and I have a hand tool for putting the 45deg chamfer on the edge.

 

[hpl]

We don't use Evostick as it is rather pricey, list price was about £50 for 5 litres last year. The one we use (not sure of manufacturer) seems to stick best if it is still slightly tacky. We did one job a few years ago with contact from a different manufacturer that started to lift as they assembled the exhibition. In our experiments afterwards the only thing we could come up with was that it didn't stick very well unless it was still tacky when the faces were put together. Since then we don't wait for it to dry out quite so much.
I've not seen the shears but the angle grinder works very well. The hand tool for the chamfer sounds useful though, do you have any more details on that?

Johnny B

 

[Digizz]

A good tip for laying large sheets of laminate is after the adhesive has dried, lay sheets of newspaper over the base then lay the laminate on top. Adjust the laminate to the correct position, put heavy weights in one end, lift other end and remove a sheet of paper. Press down with a roller then lift the other end and remove the remaining paper and roll down over all of the sheet.

Good tip thanks I've not used contact adhesive before - I presume you spray both parts and only when they come together do they stick?

What brand/type would you recommend?

Do you also over hang the laminate and then trim to size?

 

[Digizz]

Sorry for the long post but hope it helps
Johnny B

Excellent - just what I was after You also answered a couple of points I just asked/was going to ask

I need to get a couple of items - roller and contact adhesive, oh and an edge trimmer bit for my router. Any recommendations as to the type/make of roller?

 

[Digizz]

Oh, and to get a really good edge, would you leave a small overhang on the top surface then fit the edge (providing it has a perfect stright edge) before trimming the top? ... or is that asking for trouble?

...or fit the edge first, trim, then fit the top?

Edit - I just received my samples from Formica (amazing service as I only ordered very late yesterday afternoon!). I've got a number of colours in their High Gloss AR Plus range. The boards are fairly think and VERY stiff. I'm wondering if I'll have problems using it to do the edges (the ends of the top are semi-circular). There's obviously going to be a lot of force wanting to pull the formica away from the edge - is this a problem or is the contact adhesive soooo strong, it'll hold it no problem?

The other issue is that the Formica is only coloured on the top of the board (maybe 0.1 or 0.2 mm thick). the rest of the board is a brown colour. I was hoping the board would be coloured all the way through, helping with the join between top and edge. ... so, what is the best technique to get an invisible join? I'm guessing a mitred join but is that going to be impossible?

I see that Formica have a "colour core" product that has colour all the way through the product, which might make it easier to work with - but no high gloss colours

 

[Shultzy]

The hand tool for the chamfer sounds useful though, do you have any more details on that?

I bought the trimmer at the same time as I built the kitchen about 30 years ago , and I've never seen it sold since. Its a bit like a veneer edge trimmer with a tungsten carbide cutter.

Digizz, my worktops consists of 3/4" chipboard (mdf wasn't available then) with 2x1 glued underneath. I put the edging on first and trimmed it flush with top and bottom. The top was glued on with a 1/16" overhang and trimmed with the hand tool above. It trims at 45deg and also fractionally cuts the edge piece to hide the join. Today you would probable use one of the router trimmers to make the same edge.

Wealdens have lots of trimmers and the "easy-tip" section maybe your bets bet.

http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Trimmers_7.html

 

[hpl]

Hi Paul,
We use a rubber roller, about 4" wide, with a long handle that we can get two hands on for maximum pressure. The idea is to get a good amount of pressure all over the board. When I first started I remember just using a cloth and pushing very hard with our hands, not sure how successful this was in getting a strong bond though, a roller is much better.

Oh, and to get a really good edge, would you leave a small overhang on the top surface then fit the edge (providing it has a perfect stright edge) before trimming the top? ... or is that asking for trouble?

Yes that would be difficult. When sticking the edge, especially if you are going right round the piece, cut it plenty wide enough and make sure that you start very square as it is very difficult to correct it if it starts to run out. Once it is stuck it usually breaks rather than coming apart again.

I would glue the bottom on first, trim that flush with the edge. Glue the edge strip on second and trim that flush with the top. Then glue the top face on last.
It is practically impossible to mitre the edge as it would be too difficult to position the top face in the correct position once the glue is on. As soon as the two faces make contact they start to stick together and do not want to come apart. This is the reason we make the top about 2" larger than needed all round as it gives space for aligning, 2" gives us enough space to get it wrong now and again, especially on large sheets.

You have to put up with the edge looking a different colour, or at least I've never seen anything else. If you finish the top corner square, as opposed to 45 deg and then file the top corner lightly, to remove the sharp edge, then the brown colour difference is less noticeable. The solid colour stuff is marketed on it's scratch hiding ability, never used it so no idea what it is like. Also the gloss products show the scratches much more than the more matt surfaces. Make sure that you leave the plastic cover on until you have finished otherwise the router will mark it.

Wealden Tools do special laminate trimmers which we find best for the 45 deg http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... e_276.html the easy trim angle ones don't work as the bearing runs in the wrong place, I've tried it :roll: But the for the straight ones we use http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... m_267.html part T8123B

I bought the trimmer at the same time as I built the kitchen about 30 years ago , and I've never seen it sold since. Its a bit like a veneer edge trimmer with a tungsten carbide cutter.

I guess with the router cutters available now they make it easier, but very messy!

Sorry, long post again, I'm a detail man but it keeps the quality up :lol:
Hope it all makes sense.

Johnny B

 

[Digizz]

Thanks guys - that's really useful info

Reading the tech info on the FOrmica site, they say to not use contact adhesive if possible as it can suffer from edge lifting - they say use PVA! but of course, you have to clamp it which can be difficult on odd shaped pieces - or use contact in the middle and PVA on the edges of the top and the sides.

Is that being too cautious in your experience?

 

[hpl]

That surprises me, I would have thought that the contact would stick better than the PVA, I would expect the PVA to struggle to get a good hold to the formica, but I've never tried using PVA on laminate. I'll give it a go and see what happens. With out a press though I could see that this would be very difficult to do, especially on the edge of your curved top.

As regards to the edges lifting with the contact, this earlier post refers to the problems we have had in the past

We don't use Evostick as it is rather pricey, list price was about £50 for 5 litres last year. The one we use (not sure of manufacturer) seems to stick best if it is still slightly tacky. We did one job a few years ago with contact from a different manufacturer that started to lift as they assembled the exhibition. In our experiments afterwards the only thing we could come up with was that it didn't stick very well unless it was still tacky when the faces were put together. Since then we don't wait for it to dry out quite so much.

I still haven't looked at the tin we use, sorry, but we did have some evostick a while back when it was the only thing we could get in a hurry and that worked well.
Leaving it a little tacky seems to help it stick well. If I get any edge areas that don't seem well stuck then I usually force more glue under the surface and then clamp that little area down and leave it overnight to dry. That seems to sort it.
It is very rare that we get problems with the surface lifting, and apart from the job referred to in the earlier post, I can't remember having any problems for several years, and we usually do 3+ jobs in a year that involve laminating, we did one only last week, and we have some of them on a current exhibition stand that are nearly complete 4'x10' sheets glued on about 3 years ago and they are still stuck solid.

Johnny B