Still not got it after 10 months

[shedhead]

The frustrating topic of sharpening tool has raised it ugly head with me AGAIN. I go through spells of being able to sharpen most especially my spindle gouge ( fingernail profile ). and this is one of the times i can not get it right. I have got to grips with most of the other tools, but i keep having problems with the spindle gouge. Even though i have the Sorby Universal Jig, there are times that no matter how much i try i seem to get a point where it is not wanted.
Can someone please come to my rescue and advise me, it is getting that i nearly use the gouge as a dart on my shed walls.
Can you give me the degree af angle for Bowl Gouge, Spindle Gouge and Roughing Gouge. I do have the book Foundation Course but nothing works.
HELP!!

 

[Blister]

http://robertsorby.co.uk/SorbyMedia/Sharpening1.wmv

http://robertsorby.co.uk/SorbyMedia/Sharpening2.wmv

Lookey Lookey :wink:

 

[shedhead]

Thanks Blister. I have not seen this before and it is full of things that i can use to help me. One thing i know now i was doing wrong after reading the Foundation Course book tonight. I was sweeping the wings back to much and this was giving me the pointed tip i did'ent want. It just goes to show that i should always step back and calm down when things go wrong.
The sharpening thing is always a main problem for turners. I fully respect anyone that can do this freehand.

 

[CHJ]

shedhead, one of the things most people do not appreciate when using a jig to form a profile is the time spent with various sections of the tool in contact with the stone.

If you are removing too much metal off the wings resulting in a pointed crown then spend more time with the crown in contact with the wheel than the sides, even to the point of just sweeping the centre third of the tool back and forth over the stone slowing the swing in the centre area until the point is removed back to a workmanlike fingernail form and then just increase the swing to blend it into the sides.

Conversely if you want a pointed fingernail form quickly pass over the centre point, dwelling more on the side contact.

 

[TEP]

Hi shedhead. The hardest thing for a beginner to do is try to shape the tip of a gouge, considering that when you buy the majority of gouges they are definitely not the shape you want.

A easy tip on how to initially pre-shape your new or disfigured end before sharpening, is to have a guide line of the to shape to grind to.

What you do is set the gouge FLUTE DOWN on a flat grinding table angled against the stone so it will grind to the approximate length you want your swept back wings to be. This is done by guess work looking at it from the side, you decide the length of wings. You don't need them too long.

Switch on and keeping the flute hard on the table gently grind the corners of the wings back at this angle. Keep checking during the grinding, you should see a small flat appearing on each wing top. Stop grinding once the flats JUST reach the tip of the flute. Don't over grind, if you grind the tip you will just have to grind more metal away and waste your chisel.

What you should have now is two flats on the tops of each wing, and looking down at the inside edges you will see the shape of the tip you intend grinding up to. This is your grinding line.

Fit the chisel into your sharpening jig, and only grind away the sides of the flats. You can work on one side at a time, or both, you choose. What you are doing is grinding all the steel away and following the shape you made with the flats, leaving the inside edge of the flats as your cutting edge. Once you have the sides reasonable you can then begin grinding all around the edge VERY GENTLY. Continue until you have a consistent edge around the tool tip. DO NOT grind over the inside line of the flats otherwise you WILL get a pointed tip.

You should only ever have to do this once with each gouge, because you are going to set up your jig to the same angle every time you wish to re-sharpen. Also when you sharpen you DO NOT grind, you only just lightly stroke the edge of the tool on the stone and you are back to work. You must continue to follow the original shape you began with or you'll be back to your pointed end, so double check the settings of the jig before even touching the wheel.

One thing I really dislike about most of the sharpening jigs on the market, there are just too many variables for people to work with. If you have a rigid jig it takes a lot of the variable angles out of the task.

Good luck, and let me know how you get on.

 

[shedhead]

Thanks for your detailed description Tam.
When i bought all my tools the man who owns the shop kindly ground my chisels into a workable shape.
I think i now realise that i have been sweeping back too much on the wings and this is why i have slowly gained a more pointed tip. You have gave me some good information to work on when i get new tools.
Its because i have have taught myself, i know that i have many habits that if watched by someone like yourself, would be pointed out before it becomes a problem.
I know that the best way would be to get some one to one tuition, but i am not able to do that just now

 

[Ken Furminger]

Hi I agree with all the good advice the others have given the only thing I would say is why is it usualy reffered to as grinding, you only grind to get the best shape to suit you after that you hone, profferably on a fine wet stone. I hone a bowl gouge several times in an evening turning and always before final cuts that way the tool will last for years and you won't lose the perfect shape that may have taken ages to find.
But whatever keep trying.
Cheers Ken

 

[Jenx]

Hi Shedhead - I know exactly what you mean with the spindle gouge... I suffer the same 'problem' myself. By co-incedence - I was reading the Keith Rowley 'Bible' section on this very subject last night, and hopefully will sort out my gouge this evening.
I think i know what I had fallen into the trap of not doing -- I was rolling the gouge around to achieve the edge, but not swinging it to and fro on the jig platform.

Hopefully tonight will sort it out ... the book (as always) gives a good clear explanation of what should be done.

 

[Scrums]

It seems that tool sharpening is the thing that most perplexes and brings down newcomer and novice turners.

Now I wish to state straight away that these are purely personal opinions and I'm quite sure that I'm going to get some flak here....

OK, so I've got a fair amount of experience at woodturning and have been doing it a fair old while, but I have never found the need to hone tools.

Furthermore, whilst understanding that I need a good edge on a tool and a reasonable grind, so as not to present any 'facets' on the bevel, I'm not too bothered about grind quality. Indeed the state of my sad 18 yr old Nu Tool grinder with original wheels, badly needing dressing (the dresser fell apart some weeks ago) will tell you just how poor my sharpening is - but it produces tools which cut and cut well.

I fear that a lot of 'newbies' if I might refer to them as that without meaning to be patronising are getting too hung up on angles, grinding techniques etc rather than getting to grips with the actual technique of holding and presenting a tool to make a cut and shape a bowl/ form beads on a spindle etc.


ok then.......have a go at me.......rap me about the head with your spindle gouges !!

Chris.

 

[Bodrighy]

I don't use a jig for sharpening and to be perfectly honest some of my gouges have uniques shapes on them. I have found that when you have a well shaped, really sharp tool it cuts beautifully and makes the work so much easier. On the other hand I have learnt a lot from using badly sharpened tools with strange shapes because it has made me look twice at how I present the tool, what bit is actually cutting and so forth. I still have a few carbon steel tools that I use. (plus some HSS tools that I don't)I would advocate that anyone who can, go get lessons in sharpening and perhaps a jig but if, like me, you are doing everything on a shoestring then don't be put off. you can still produce some good stuff even with bad tools. It is the turner who makes objects, not the tools. They just make it easier. . I was reading through one of Bill Jones's books the other day and I found his remarks and attitudes really amusing as they were so blase and laid back about things that we get all excited about and yet the things he was turning out were amazing. A good turner with bad tools can turn out good stuff, a bad turner with the best tools still turns out rubbish

Pete (a relative Newbie and destined to remain so)

 

[CHJ]

It seems that tool sharpening is the thing that most perplexes and brings down newcomer and novice turners.
.............I fear that a lot of 'newbies' if I might refer to them as that without meaning to be patronising are getting too hung up on angles, grinding techniques etc rather than getting to grips with the actual technique of holding and presenting a tool to make a cut and shape a bowl/ form beads on a spindle etc.

=D> =D> =D>

ok then.......have a go at me.......rap me about the head with your spindle gouges !!
Chris.

It's OK Chris, I'll stand along side of you and take some of the incoming.

Most misdirection is down to the power of the advertising of bigger, better, more expensive kit I fear, no matter how fine an edge is honed on a gouge, the moment it is presented to a high speed abrasive silica impregnated piece of wood it is not going to survive long.

Far better to spend the money and effort on duplicate tools with subtly differing profiles IMO.

 

[jaymar]

I had a look on the wolverine site at a sharpening jig and how to use it. I made my own version with a slotted piece of wood and an end piece to hold the tool. If you look at the site you will get what I mean. It works really well,
especially with skews and spindle gauges. I use a home made jig similar to the one Chas demonstrated for bowl gauges

 

[boysie39]

I have a DVD by Mick NEWbury and he gets his edge's right (he uses a jig ) then when the edge is right BEFORE he sharpens the next time he covers the point with a felt tip pen, offers it up to the wheel and turns the wheel backwards with his hand just to make sure the setting is perfect and cuts or adjusts as shown . Hope this makes sense it does to me and I will be forever grateful to Mick Hanbury. Regards Boysie

 

[Jenx]

Hi Boysie - that feltpen idea sounds good.. so long as it doesn't come off the tool bevel and mark the workpiece itself, it sounds like many things.. simple yet effective.

Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire... not that I know much about it myself really, but most of the books I've read say that honing is un-necessary for woodturning tools.... I guess eveyone has their 'way' and if it works for you, then great.

I also agree with Chas's sentiments too... the 'fear' is put into Novices such as myself by the very books and magazines one reads to try and learn.
Its something akin to my 'real' hobby.. Motorcycling... so many new riders read so much nonsense in the various bike-press about riding over white lines in the wet, the complications of the steering geometry in a corner etc etc and on and on ad-infinitum, that they become terrified of the machine and ride in a totally un-relaxed and consequently dangerous state of mind... I guess that all the reading we can (potentially) do, regarding tool sharpening etc, can have a similar effect, and panic you into approaching your workpieces with abject terror.
Slowly, and it really IS slowly - I'm trying to learn to relax, and to accept my faults and fallabilities for what they are, and to then try and learn from them... after all, every 'dig-in' or little catastrophe is a learning opportunity in disguise... as someone once said, 'every day is a school day'
8)

 

[PowerTool]

.
but most of the books I've read say that honing is un-necessary for woodturning tools.... I guess eveyone has their 'way' and if it works for you, then great.

To add my opinions - I believe honing as well as sharpening is un-necessary (in the way you would with a blade for a plane) as that ultra-sharp edge will disappear in a large number of nano-seconds at 2,000 rpm :wink:
Same as Ken.though,I often hone instead of grinding (with a diamond file) - to touch-up the edge for a final pass,for instance,rather than going to the grinder.

Andrew

 

[La Truciolara]

...
The sharpening thing is always a main problem for turners. I fully respect anyone that can do this freehand.

You should... because if they are like me they are old :wink: :lol:

 

[shedhead]

Excuse my lack of knowledge but what is honing and how do you do it successfully.
I know it removes the burr after sharpening but what am i missing. I can hear all you woodworkers sniggering up your sleeves at me, but what the heck if i dont ask i will never learn.

 

[CHJ]

...but what is honing and how do you do it successfully. .....

In an engineering context it is normally used to describe the final finishing of a cylinder bore or bearing with a tool consisting of 2, 3 or 4 fine grade stones, (usually in a set consisting of a series of grades of stone)

In the finishing of cutting tools it refers to using similar fine grade small stones to polish the cutting edge, (stones are often contoured to the cutter form) this is taken even further to include using a fabric or semi-hard wheel to carry various fine abrasives to further polish the surface.

 

[Bodrighy]

I don't think that there are that many sniggerers on here, in fact a lot of us have been asking the same sort of questions ourselves. You'd be surprised at how many of us in the turning forum have been turning for a yearor less. I am still waiting my first anniversary. Steep slippery slope means you travel fast :lol:
Also crash a lot
Keep asking the 'daft' questions, we all need to know the answers.

Pete

 

[Jenx]

Hi Pete ... is that right, under a year ? - you turn out some really bonny stuff, for that 'short period' of learning... really nice !
There's hope for me yet, then ! :wink: