Spraying equipment advise

[fobos8]

Hi everyone

I'm about to invest in some spraying equipment and I'd like to run my thoughts past some experienced (or not so experienced) sprayers!
I'm looking at 2 systems; (i) the Fuji Q3 HVLP turbine system which is £440, and (ii) the Sata MiniJet 4 HVLP gun and 7cfm Machine Mart air compressor - together around £330.

I've nevered used spray equipment before, but I just started making bedroom furniture which needs lacquer applying. The biggest thing which would need spraying is a 2m x 0.6m door (1.2 square metres each side).

The things I like about the Fuji system is that turbine systems are suppossed to result in more finish hitting the sprayed object, also the cup is 1 litre. What concerns me about the Fuji system is the gun getting warm and curing the lacquer.

The thing I'm not sure about with the Sata + compressor is the effiency of the finish hitting the object and also that the max cup size it will take is 0.3 litre. I reckon that will only be enough to give a coat to one of the doors without refilling. I can't use a larger capacity gun cos that'll mean a bigger compresor and I have got the room for one.

What does everyone else reckon?

Cheers, Andrew

 

[Scrit]

I reckon that will only be enough to give a coat to one of the doors without refilling. I can't use a larger capacity gun cos that'll mean a bigger compresor and I haven't got the room for one.

Hi Andrew

There are major differences between turbine systems (HVLP) and conventional high pressure systems.

Conventional high pressure systems on bleeder guns generally require a compressor with 10 cfm FAD (free air delivered) or more and a goodly size reservoir, say 100 ltr plus (at 150psi). The conventional wisdom is that your compressor needs to have a rating TWICE that of your gun, so 8.5cfm gun = 17cfm compressor. If you don't have that sort of compressor capacity you're gun will potentially be breathless and/or your compressor will run all the time and/or suffer from pressure fluctuations - not good for your hearing, patience or your compressor! With a conventional compressor you will also need two filters in the line, a standard coalescing filter (say 20 micron) to take out oil, dust and moisture followed by a fine filter (5 to 10 micron) to ensure that the air quality at the gun is good.

The thing I'm not sure about with the Sata + compressor is the effiency of the finish hitting the object and also that the max cup size it will take is 0.3 litre.

A 0.3 ltr pot (like that on the Sata) is really tiny, more like a touch-up gun than a proper spray gun - if you are doing even short sessions 0.5 to 1ltr is much better (above 1 litre and the weight/bulk of the gun would be a problem), whilst for extended spraying the trade guys use a separate pressurised tank of between 2 and 25 litres. It is very annoying to have to break-off every 10 minutes or so to top up the gun - tends to break the flow a bit.....

Turbine HVLP rigs don't require the extra filtration as the filter (like a car pancake filter) is on the turbine.

What concerns me about the Fuji system is the gun getting warm and curing the lacquer.

Don't worry, I use a Wagner Industrial HVLP with a bleeder-type gun and a syphon pot - and whilst gun gets a little warm (but not unbearably so) the finish doesn't go off that quick inside the pot. There isn't enough space inside the pot to allow the solvents in the finish material to flash off and be dispersed into the atmosphere. And that warmth can help your finish flash-off quicker on the work piece which is another advantage. To date I haven't had problems with finishes drying between the gun and the workpiece, either.

The things I like about the Fuji system is that turbine systems are supposed to result in more finish hitting the sprayed object...

The major advantage of HVLP over conventional is that with less kinetic energy imparted to the finishing materials there is much less bounce back and overspray. That converts to a 10 to 30% savings in materials over conventional spraying and is why many car makers and larger body shops have converted to HVLP conversion guns in recent years (HVLP guns which run off a conventional compressor - don't go there, generally expensive and require huge compressors)

If you are undecided I'd suggest getting Andy Charron's excellent book "Spray Finishing" (Taunton Press, ISBN 1-56158-114-3). It's probably the only book on furniture spray finishing written by a professional furniture sprayer. Some of the terms are a bit American, but it's a heck of a good reference. Includes stuff about HVLP and water-based, too. (And if I recommenfd that book one more time I'll probably ask for commission!!!!!). There's also an excellent thread on this site about pre-cats, here. Not modest, but what the heck.

Oh yes, and if you've digested all the above, it boils down to a vote for the Fuji!

Regards

Scrit

 

[Chris Knight]

The SATA minjet is true HVLP ( I have the earlier 3 version) and it will work with small air volumes but it is a small gun designed for touch up as Scrit suggests. A full size HVLP gun designed for conventional air (ie compressor systems) will need at least 10cfm. SATA also do a hybrid called the RP which confers most of the HVLP benefits but needs less air to run, I use one with a compressor delivering 9cfm.

 

[Scrit]

Chris

Will the SATA spray dense materials in the same way that a heavy-duty conversion gun (like the deVilbiss ones) will? Or is it like conventional (turbine-driven) HVLP guns and limited to sub-latex weight paints and finishes?

Scrit

 

[Cutting Crew]

I also use the Satajet and as explained before it only has a small pot but as my spraying is restricted to turnings it's not a problem.

It will spray heavy materials, I often use it with 2 pack clear lacquers and the finish is great. Very pleased with the results from such a small gun.

Regards....Mike

 

[fobos8]

Thanks guys for your input so far.

For me as I'm just working from my garage (at moment) I only really have room for a small (7cfm) compressor. As you can only use a touch up/detail HVLP conversion gun with this, it sounds like their small capacity(300cc) means I won't be able to conveniently finish doors/drawers for say a fitted bedroom or kitchen.

I reckon my best bet then is probably to go for the Fuji turbine system for now. The turbine is really small (less than 30cm square!). As long as the finish I'll get from shooting nc lacquer will be high quality I think i'll get one.

Firstly though, I'll take Scrit's advise and get that book.

Anyone out there using the Fuji system? What's it like?

Cheers, Andrew

 

[Chris Knight]

Scrit,
It will spray dense materials - it's a full blown industrial-duty conversion gun jobbie (not cheap either )

Andrew,
The Fuji is a nice system that I have tried at a couple of shows and I am sure you will be happy with it. I do use a Wagner turbine ( a big 4 stage one) but the thing I like about the conversion guns is the better spray control you get over a turbine HVLP gun. However for spraying most furniture, you won't be hampered.

 

[fobos8]

Anyone got any idea how many square metres of lacquer a 450cc pot will spray?

I know it depends on how thinned the lacquer is........ but I'm trying to decide if to get the Mini-mite system with comes with a 450cc gravity feed and no alternative pots or the Q3 which comes with a 1000cc pot and has to ability to add 250cc touch up pots.

:roll:

Dunno which would be best... I might find that 450cc is not big enough in a few years time when I'm hopefully doing bigger projects..

Cheers, Andrew

 

[Scrit]

Anyone got any idea how many square metres of lacquer a 450cc pot will spray?

Ask the paint/finish manufacturer for coverage rates, which will be expressed in square metres per litre. I know that some of the stuff I use is about 8 to 10 square metres/litre per coat, but edge spraying for example always takes a lot more than that.

Scrit

 

[Chris Knight]

Andrew,
A couple of other thinsg worth mentioning:-

1. Gravity fed guns are usually easier to clean than siphon types as you don't have to clean the suction pipe and under the rim of the container.

2. If using water based lacquers, make sure the gun you get has stainless steel or non-rusting metal needle/nozzles so you don't have to worry about rusting.

3. If using solvent based lacquers, make up something to catch the spray when you use gun cleaner or thinners - preferably not down the drain!

 

[fobos8]

Thanks a lot for all your helo. I'm gonna get the fuji q3. It has a converion kit now for swithching between gravity and bottom pots so I'll keep my options open that way. I had a look on the Sawmills creek forum. There a lot of people on there who give very positive feedback on it.

Andy Charron book should be here today. Where do I send commission to??

 

[houtslager]

well her's my pennies worth !
have you looked at the APOLLO 700 system
3 stage HVLP with facilities to run 2 guns at the same time.
I have had mine for a number of years and had no problems,
IMHO a very good system and reasonable priced too

all the best from HS in a SUNNY Germany

 

[fobos8]

Thanks for that

I'll have a look at that Apollo system. Its half the price of the Fuji one. That'll leave me a bit of beer money left..

Cheers, Andrew

 

[Steve Maskery]

Hi F

I'm on my second Apollo. Very happy.

It only does bottom pot, but that has never been a problem.

Cheers
Steve

(BTW my first Apollo (600) was fine, I just sold it because I got a good deal on an 800 which has a more sophisticated gun.)