Spiral cutters

[johnnyb]

I've been fascinated with helical cutters since first reading about them x years ago. They seem to offer the garage woodworker a perfect solution re finish noise dust extraction etc.
That's not what my post is about really I've just been reading countless posts on American sites regarding these products. Stretching back many years and of course many different opinions. How far behind are the UK in these things. Helical heads have been mainstream for many years across the pond. They retrofit them in any planer even vintage ones. People buy lunchbox planers then spend the same putting helical cutters on. It's like a fever over there. Over here.....nothing... a few overpriced niche manufacturers(hammer) and axminster peddling a cheap Chinese planer with one on. Reviews all by ringers on these machines.
I guess it's not worthwhile even getting involved in the UK market but to send over an identical machine with a heli head can't be so hard. Look at the jet. A relatively common machine(through axminster) available in the us with heli heads. Why not here?
Axminster being the biggest player may not be doing us ant favours as they wouldn't want to compete with themselves.
Imagine a Sedgwick pt with a spiral head.
Surely someone can bring this tech to the fore and make a fortune in the process.
America is a different world full of people paying half what we do and complaining twice as much about things that work much much better all made in China and not available to the rest of the world.
Jb

 

[heimlaga]

The Americans are very good at making us believe that everything they have is just soooo good.

I have discussed this supply problem with quite a few Americans over the years and found that professionals over there are just as envious of us.
They have lots and lots of advanced hobby grade machinery on the market but when going up into the semi-professional and professional range we are much better off in Europe.

American full time professionals are often forced to make do with what we consider advanced hobby grade machines because there is nothing better on the market. The industrial market is just too small to be of interrest to volume-focused American wholesalers so those few that cater to that market can charge exorbitant prices for the little they bother to sell.

In most of Europe it is the other way around. Especially here in Finland and also to a lesser degree in the UK.
There is a healthy supply of new industrial machines. On the other hand there is very little available on the hobby market and on the semi-professional market. Our almighty and volume-focused importers have decided that only the best will sell to industry and only the cheapest junk will sell to the greatest number of hobbyists so they sell nothing in between the two. Those few that cater to advanced hobbyists and parttimers can charge exorbitant prices for what little they bother to sell.

Here in Finland our almighty importers have also figured out that the more available spare parts and replacement tooling there is the more it will cut back their sales of new machinery.
For instance felt washers and ball oilers and cup oilers and drip oilers and bolts and nuts with Whitworth and BSF threads and mortiser chains and bars and sprockets are totally unobtainable at any cost.
White metal for bearings and also imperial-sized ball bearings as well as angular contact ball bearings are unibtainable unless you have contacts and know which string to pull. The same is true for flat belts and grinding wheels and bits for hollow chisel mortisers and wheelbarrow tyres.

In all we can conclude that when the leading wholesalers became too big we left the free market behind and entered a new area of market-bolsjevism. What isn't mentioned in the 5 year plan made at the head office of the wholesaler isn't available.

Fortuinately internet has opened up for buying stuff that isn't available because of the national wholesaler.
I have a new sprocket for my Haffner sl100 chaion mortiser on it's way from UK. I got ball oilers and oil cups from USA in the past with help from a local who bought them from a business who refused to sell abroad and posted them to me. Now I have found a supplier of ball oilers and oil cups in UK that will sell to Finland.

 

[deema]

It’s just my opinion, when I was selecting my P/T I could have chosen a spiral head or a Tersa head. I chose the Tersa system. The advertised advantages of the spiral are
1. Quieter, well it may have been my hearing but the same board put through two machines side by side one with a Tersa head and the other spiral taking the same thickness of cut was not appreciably quieter!!
2. Highly figured wood has less / no tear out with a spiral head. I’ve no experience of this, however, most people don’t use highly figured wood to make this a real consideration. If you are, a belt / drum sander is a far better solution that eliminates any possibility of tear out.
3.The cutters stay sharper for longer.....you can get carbide Tersa knives. You can also resharpen Tersa cutters.
4. Easy to change over. Well, and again this is just my view, this is a compete sales persons tall story. I changed a full set of 4 Tersa cutters in the same time it took to the demonstrator to unscrew the first cutter of hundreds on a spiral block. This was in a spiral block that was clean and not gummed up with resin....as they are after running any soft wood through it.

In conclusion, I found that a spiral block couldn’t compete with a Tersa system on any level including cost. Tersa blocks are easy to source and simply to retrofit to a machine. There are other systems similar to the tersa system that would be worth investigating.

 

[doctor Bob]

As above, as a professional tersa suits my needs much better.

 

[Limey Lurker]

It's like a fever over there

.

That sums up the American attitude to anything fulsomely described in an advert!

 

[memzey]

I’ve gone for Tersa as well. I’ve never used a helical head so I can’t compare the two but I couldn’t be happier with my choice. Knives stay sharp for ages, I can change out the four in my block in under a minute and the finish they leave is superb. You can also get specific knives for specific work like carbide for high silica woods. IMHO For an amateur or someone who is not changing out knives every week and therefore doesn’t have the built up knack of changing resharpenable knives quickly, Tersa are a dream.

 

[doctor Bob]

Takes me about 10 minutes to strip my 4 sider out, change 12 tersa blades and reassemble.

 

[cowfoot]

I’ve had the Axminster AT107PT with spiral block for about 6 months.
It’s not quite up to the standard of a Hammer but it’s a solid, reliable (so far!) machine and I’ve no regrets.
A few of the peripheral parts (fence, knobs etc) are on the flimsy side but that’s the case until you start shelling out Sedgwick/Felder money - or buying vintage with confidence in your ability to maintain old machines.
I’ve stuck a couple of hundred feet of hardwood through it and don’t need to turn the cutters round yet - I’d have had to turn/swap the knives over on my last machine at least four times to get the same results.
The “silent” thing is a bit of a red herring - it’s still a noisy machine and unless someone’s managed to make a silent chip collecter then it’s a moot point!

 

[johnnyb]

Interesting replies I use an old sedgwick and can't complain. The real pros sound like tersa men. But it's a big step up to larger industrials from trade machines. I guess the last poster was the best review. But people in the UK will not be really knowledgeable About helicals as there so unusual. The Sedgwick is very loud! The idea that a dust extractor is loud is missing the point I think. There's loud and there's Sedgwick! Muricans despite being mostly tool buyers often preempt the rest of the world. So my guess is helis are on there way.
Jb

 

[ndbrown]

I recently sold my Sedgwick PT255 and have ordered a Hammer A3-26 with Silent Power (Spiral block), its due for delivery this week (December 28th). I totally rebuilt the Sedgwick PT255 a few years ago (Covered in my lengthy post elsewhere on the forum). The Sedgwick is a fantastic machine, my first Planer/Thicknesser and has really made a difference to my woodwork. I had fitted German Barke disposable knives which were easy to fit and not too much trouble to change, not as quick as Tersa but still very easy.
I am a hobby woodworker, my main workshop is a garage integral with the house but the Sedgwick in thicknessing mode is seriously loud. My family were fine about it but i live in a residential area and it certainly put me of using it as regularly as I would have liked. In thicknessing mode and with ear defenders on, communication next to the machine was by sign language. By comparison, the you could have a normal conversation next to the Hammer in thicknessing mode, the dust extractor is noisier then the machine.
I looked at a Helical head option for the Sedgwick from Byrd in the USA but with the one-off costs, shipping and tax combined with what I could sell the Sedgwick for I was 3/4 of the way to the price of a new Hammer machine. Agree, the silent block is definitely not silent but a substantial benefit for me.

 

[cowfoot]

Fair point about the noise - I’m lucky enough to live next door to a dairy farm whose machines start up at the crack of dawn, so I can make as much of a racket as I like!

 

[MikeJhn]

I'd be interested to know how you have compared the noise level of the two, have you Db readings of both? Thicknessing the same material?

Mike

 

[ndbrown]

I dont have a noise meter but for me the reduction reading in dB is irrelevant. I could not have a conversation when working with my son next to the Sedgwick, It was ear defenders on and sign language to indicate whether I was going to take another pass through the thicknesser. With the Hammer spiral block, I could talk to him normally without ear defenders. I expect my wife will be able to hear the TV in the kitchen which is next to the workshop. Did not use the same wood sample for both tests but both tests were with some sawn Oak

 

[johnnyb]

The hammer is £3200 or so plus delivery and any options I think. Serious money. Many pros don't spend that on there planers. The 10 inch has quite a short bed to. It looks a great machine but it's not industrial. I do think robland scm minimax make good no great machines and they are cheapish but there huge. Why are machines so poorly specced? Dream machine would be 10 inch planer with spiral or 4 tersa knives. 1.5m tables with fixed bed ala Sedgwick.. noise insulated motor/ drive. Variable feed speed using vfd. 16a supply with 13a plugtop to feed motor. Innovative dust solutions to. I also like rebate ledges but proper one not afterthoughts

 

[MikeJhn]

But in your post you say "have ordered" and " will be delivered" from that I assume the hammer has not arrived yet, therefore my previous question how have you compared the noise level?

Mike

 

[ndbrown]

If you speak to Hammer UK, they will put you in touch with other owners in you area that are happy to demo the machine or or by appointment you can go to Milton Keynes to try it for yourself. You can then make your own mind up on it. For me with the added options of spiral block, mobile wheel kit, lift bar, digital handwheel for the thicknesser the price including delivery to Scotland was within the budget I had. With what I got for my Segwick sale privately, the cost to change was just over £2100. I need the compact dimensions for this machine and its handy to be able to fit the table extension if needed. I did not look at the equivalent Minimax as its too big but I have a Minimax S45 bandsaw, which has been excellent as well.

 

[no idea]

I've converted my Jet JPT310 from normal knives to a spiral head and have found that there is a noticeable reduction in noise. I haven't measured it because the noise level wasn't a reason for converting, but it is sufficiently noticeable that i have planed and thicknessed without my ear defenders on and only realised when i saw them on the bench. With traditional knives I would definately know when I didn't have the defenders on, with the spiral block the planer makes about as much noise as the dust extractor when in use. I don't intentionally use machines without my ear defenders but the odd times when I have forgotten the noise from other machines, and the planer before the conversion, was enough to make me stop and put them on. After the conversion on the planer, the noise without defenders wasn't sufficiently loud to make me realise I had forgotten them.

On the subject of Tersa blocks, I did consider a Tersa conversion but finding information about this was very difficult, whereas a spiral conversion could be done either with a Byrd aftermarket head or using original Jet items from their helical head model. I went for the Jet head because:
1) I could source it through Axminster along with all the other items that differ between the standard and helical head versions.
2) The Jet head is a helical design that uses the same cutters as the Byrd head so has the same advantages i.e. no lines left on the board as has been reported on post on this forum some time ago with a Hammer planer thicknesser
3) I knew it would fit since the head and ancillary parts were made/supplied by Jet.

 

[MikeJhn]

The acoustics of a particular room/workshop will make a difference to what you perceive as being a quieter machine it is no use hearing and using two different machines in different workshops and trying to compare the two for noise level, my own workshop is a 13m2 barn with a massively high pitched wooden ceiling to my perception the extractor is the noisiest of everything as it is close to a stone wall, the noise it makes is reflected off that wall, the other noise making machines are in the middle of the space, so the vibration/noise is dissipated into the air around the machine and not reflected in one direction, notwithstanding any of the above, IMO noise should not be the overall reason for buying a particular machine, correctly placed sound proofing can change the harmonics of any building or machine to an acceptable level, internally and externally, the only question is absorb or reflect.

Mike

 

[ndbrown]

The Jet JPT310 is a nice machine, I looked at the 260 version some time ago and I thought it was nicely built with good quality castings and it's good that you were able to convert your 310 version to a spiral head. I did not know that Jet offered an alternative block now but I know that the Byrd heads are a bit pricey when the exchange rates and other costs are taken into account.

 

[no idea]

The Jet JPT310 is a nice machine, I looked at the 260 version some time ago and I thought it was nicely built with good quality castings and it's good that you were able to convert your 310 version to a spiral head. I did not know that Jet offered an alternative block now but I know that the Byrd heads are a bit pricey when the exchange rates and other costs are taken into account.

Jet don't actually offer a conversion kit - I identified all the parts that differed between the 310HH and normal 310 and bought them as spare parts through Axminster. It's no cheaper than the Byrd option and I suspect the Jet head is actually made by Byrd seeing as it uses Shelix cutters. It is possible to replace just the head but I changed the other parts so that the thicknesser feed speed is reduced as it is on the 310HH. I did this on the basis that Jet do this on their helical head models by design so it's better to do a full conversion rather than just the head.