Skelton dovetail saw pass round.

[Mr T]

Shane Skelton of Skelton Saws has kindly agreed to provide one of his hand made dovetail saws for a pass round. You may have seen some talk about it on the other thread "Skelton Saws". The current list is:

Myself
Jimi43
Berncarpenter
Matthewwh
Bedrock

GS Haydon and Peter Sefton have made separate arrangements with Shane.

I hope to have the saw on Monday and try it out and also let some of my evening class students loose on it. I'll send it off to Jimi later next week, when he's finished with it he'll post it off to the next on the list and so on. Best to make it recorded delivery postage and to keep up the impetus, especially with Christmas postal delays, try not to hold on to it for more than two or three days.

If you'd like to join in, copy and paste the list into your reply and add your username at the bottom, then send a private message with your real name and address to the person before you. The pass round is open to all current members as of today and we'll limit it to those in areas served by Royal Mail first and second class post.

I'm looking forward to your reviews and comments.

Chris

 

[jimi43]

Thanks Chris (AND SHANE!!)

PM sent to you with address etc.

Cheers

Jimi

 

[Peter Sefton]

Looking forward to playing with the saw possibly next week.

Cheers guys

 

[Doug B]

Myself
Jimi43
Berncarpenter
Matthewwh
Bedrock
Doug B

 

[matthewwh]

Thank you Chris and Shane, I'm looking forward to it!

 

[tobytools]

Myself
Jimi43
Berncarpenter
Matthewwh
Bedrock
Doug B
Tobytools

 

[Mr T]

I've been having trouble posting images for this review so it may go over two postings!

When Shane first showed me his saw at the Harrogate show I only had a few minutes to try it, so I was looking forward to giving it a more thorough test drive. The saw comes nicely packaged wrapped in rust preventive paper in a cardboard box.
On first site it is certainly a thing of beauty. The shape and detail of the hand cut rosewood handle was very elegant as was the attention to detail and fitting of the brass saw nut and screws. The brass back sits snugly into the handle indicating there will be little prospect of slackening.

The saw balances nicely in the hand and has a good “feel”. I have mentioned before that I find the handle just a tad too small for my gorilla like hands. I compared it with my current dovetail saws, a Veritas and a Roberts and Lee, and found it felt slightly narrower between the “points top and bottom. The grip was also 2-3mm narrower front to back, although the reverse was true across the width. Even though it feel a little under size it had a better feel than the others. Shane tells me he can supply a larger handle in necessary. This is the advantage of handmade, you can have some input in the making process.

In use I found that my index finger preferred to sit on the brass back rather than the front of the handle however I quite liked that as it gave a better feel for the cut.

The proof of the pudding is in the sawing, how did it do. This saw is 15tpi, a lot courser than the 20 tpi of the Veritas and the Roberts and Lee, so I would expect a rougher cut. I started with a few practice cuts to get my eye in. I found that the start of the cut at the back corner was fine. However there was a tendency to jump out of the kerf if I got into my stride too early, I needed to have a millimetre or so depth of kerf before I could start sawing proper. However once I got going the cut was quick and smooth. I have a tendency to stop short of the gauge line when sawing dovetails, I found that this saw improved my accuracy in this dimension.

I went on to try a set of dovetails in some spotty sycamore and cherry from the off cuts box. Again the cut was quick and smooth and my cutting to the shoulders seemed OK. My other problem with dovetails is wandering from the line at the back of the cut when cutting on the left of the tail. I’m afraid the shot of the back of the cut shows the saw could not help me there! However the back shot does show how clean the cut is.

To be continued....

 

[Mr T]

...........Continued.

After cutting away the waste from the pins I could see how clean the saw cut face was and it looked good (I may later post a shot of a similar cut from one my other DT saws for comparison).
Some of my evening and afternoon class students tried the saw out and all agreed about easy and speed of cutting, but then they may have been trying humour me!

Having used the Skelton I made a few cuts with my current saws and they were very lacklustre in comparison. However assessing the Skelton in comparison with my other saws if tricky. Obviously the Skelton is new and very sharp, my current saws are probably a little tired so underperforming. But the hardened steel blade on the Skelton will probably ensure that it stays sharp longer. I can’t remember what set Shane uses, but I have always found that the Veritas binds in the kerf, presumably because of lack of set.

All in all this is the best dovetail saw I have tried, but then, at £245, it’s also the most expensive! As some of my sawing errors show fancy tools aren’t a cure all, they can’t make a bad craftsman into a good craftsman, but they can make a good craftsman better. I wonder if there is also a tendency to do better work with quality tools almost because of a sense of letting the tools down if you do shoddy work.

A final note, one of my students said it was the “Rolex of saws”.

Jimi43 now has the saw I look forward to his comments

 

[8squared]

Myself
Jimi43
Berncarpenter
Matthewwh
Bedrock
Doug B
Tobytool
8squared

 

[jimi43]

Thanks for the review Chris...and I can confirm that I have safely received the saw and will be reviewing it as soon as possible so I can pass it on.

First impressions...very nice indeed! 8)

Cheers

Jimi

 

[bugbear]

I wonder if there is also a tendency to do better work with quality tools almost because of a sense of letting the tools down if you do shoddy work.

I don't wonder about that at all. I think you're absolutely correct.

BugBear

 

[SkeltonSaws]

Good Evening All,

So nice to see the saw out there and being used. Thanks Chris for this and the review - some good pictures too. I noticed that you were unsure about the set - The saw plate is 18 thou with a maximum of 3 thou set per side and minimum of 2 thou set per side. It's pleasing that you have picked up on the attention to detail - obviously I have aimed to produce the best saw both aesthetically and functionally that is on the market and I think that it is probably the handmade attention to detail that sets it apart from other saws that are mass produced. The way that I fit the brass into the handle is completely unique to any other saw available and is inspired from my gunsmithing days and letting actions into stocks.

I look forward to following all your comments and reviews as the saw passes around.

Keep sawing everyone and enjoy!

Shane

 

[G S Haydon]

Thanks Mr T, my what big hand you have! I know you mentioned it but mine look like little boy hands in comparison!

 

[jimi43]

First of all...huge thanks again to Shane for the chance to have a look at this fine saw.

And fine it is..as in "fine art".

Before I begin my findings..I will emphasise that I am looking at this mostly from an aesthetic and ergonomic standpoint...I will leave other to review "making dovetails"...I am sure there are some in the list who are past masters at this! And I apologise for any repetition...but things repeated stay in the mind after all! :wink:

I've spoken with Shane at length...he has a true passion for his craft and the attention to detail is astounding.

This extends to the packaging...which when you buy a boutique saw is sort of expected but often absent these days.

The spring steel plate needs to be protected as it can corrode easily and the saw comes wrapped in rust inhibiting paper..this is good as I keep most of my saws in the stuff and they're never even developed a spot..

Traditional saw making in England has all but disappeared so SKELTON SAWS are important on so many levels. Researchers of historically significant tools will be pleased to know that each saw is numbered..this is No.10 and further than that...the company keeps a record of each saw...along with a log of the owner. In a hundred years time when someone wants to go back through history..it will all be there...as I know the saw will be.

In use...balance is all important and care has been taken to ensure this saw is perfect in this respect. This is just one of a number of factors which makes the cutting of dovetails a breeze.


I will start right off by saying that I wanted to compare this saw with others..I have two candidates...my treasured saw "Ginger" from Klaus and Pedder...and another fine saw I have just acquired by W.Taylor...who Simon Barley lists but about which nothing appears to be known.


As expected both Ginger....

...and the SKELTON SAW...

...cut beautifully. It's not fair at all to compare two Rolls Royces...they are both sublime!

I am no cabinet maker nor jointer and I think I can count on the fingers of one hand how many dovetail joints I have done...so I have no intention of getting into a "my dovetail's better than yours" competition...I'll leave that up to the true experts..but I will show the results of the actual cuts...

Three cuts...TLT left...next to the SKELTON and then on the right...the old TAYLOR
Considering the Taylor is a few moons older and in dire need of seeing a dentist...it didn't do too badly but the other two were sublime...and as to be expected..nothing in it really...maybe the TLT is finer...but only by a gnat's whatsit!


I followed the tapered concept...level brass back to bench..cut to line..peer over and then cut back to line. This is something I think is of benefit to novices and experienced users alike...and makes sense...another "attention to history" moment.

So..some of the other "special things".

The back is solid..slot cut very accurately and then carefully cut into the handle by hand.

As we can see..the design of the handle is straight from the Georgian period...and like most things of that era..they reached the zenith of beauty and functionality...and SKELTON saws have obviously reproduced this faithfully...this I like a lot...as I love that period too.

Echoes of history are very evident...and this is something which attracts me. Modern interpretations of this style had been attempted by other makers over the generations and sadly...nothing comes close to the class of this shape.

The plate fits seamlessly into the slot in the brass back...with the company logo boldly emblazoned on its side...a mark hand stamped using a press and one of CHALCO STAMP AND DIE's wonderful punches...I just knew this the moment I saw it!

The teeth are beautiful. They are hand cut using a purpose-made die..individually and then hand sharpened and set. I know of one other maker that goes to these lengths to achieve perfection....I have one such saw! :wink:

For the technical buffs..here is the full specification:

Handle: Selected Indian rosewood...plantation grown.
Cut: Rip
Rake: 8 degrees
Plate type: Selected spring steel tapered cut.
Plate thickness: 18 thou.
Set: 2-3 thou.
Teeth: 15 TPI (16 PPI)

Finishing touches include the saw medallion...not a random "Warranted" gooble-de-**** but justifiable pride.

The engraved design is based on the SKELTON of YORKSHIRE family shield...a peacock carrying an oak branch and acorn in its mouth and the SKELTON family name. This is a nice touch historically but also it stands alone to emphasise all the other bespoke elements which may not be fully appreciated on first inspection. The "Spirit of Ecstasy" on this fine saw.

So...in conclusion..the acid test...would I buy one...well no...because I already have a fine dovetail saw...

But I do need to take longer than a couple of days to make absolutely sure that I like it...so I shall be sending a hand print off to Shane so he's ready when he makes a carcass saw... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Recent appreciation for the use of hand tools has been exponential and we were that close to not being able to compete in that market...here and overseas.

Mr Skelton has allowed me to breath a huge sigh of relief because with this saw...we are very much in the running again in Britain...which is just as it should be!

Cheers

Jimi

 

[G S Haydon]

Nicely contrasted with the two lawyers Jim. i just love those classic lines of the Skelton.

 

[SkeltonSaws]

Good Afternoon!

I am humbled Jimi ! Thank you for your appraisal, it is really nice to see that you have understood what we are about and what I have aimed to create in a saw. We really appreciate the time and the effort that you have taken to write this review the pictures are fantastic! We especially like the last one and the 'Saw Maker's Wife' may use that one if that is ok? in one of her posts. There really isn't much comparison between your old saw and mine when put side by side - very nice! Yours is however just slightly younger than the one I have aimed to replicate (only 20-30 years I would say) The tell tale sign being yours is flat topped. By this time the rounded lug had begun to fall out of fashion and the flat top was much quicker to make. We too are really pleased with how our medallions have turned out, such an intricate metal stamp, the talented Ian Houghton at Chalco Stamp & Die Company made an amazing job.
Thanks again...enjoy everyone!

Shane

 

[pedder]

I really like the transition betwen he spine and the handle.

Cheers Pedder

 

[jimi43]

Hey Shane...the saw's a beauty...pictures don't lie so my review just reflects what everyone can see.

I appreciate you explaining some of the more technical things...and I appreciated most understanding the fine line (no pun intended!) between the plate steel being too thick moving to optimum and then too thin for anyone other than real expert users for fear of bending it.

As I say...there is not much in it between yours and the fine lawyer's of this parish...I am so glad I have mine from Germany because it means I don't have to choose when you get around to expanding your range! :mrgreen:

Since my mate Pedder was kind enough to comment on your back/handle transition...(thanks Pedder...one thing I forgot to mention which is Uber Cool!)...I suppose I should post this picture to show I haven't forsaken Ginger!

...and this shot was actually balanced AND held in place by two high power rare earth magnets (hidden behind) as I was terrified that I might bend the plate otherwise! LOL!

Both of these saws are at the top of their game...and perhaps I should say that Europe now has some formidable tools up there with the best....but bearing different genes.

Shane...as far as the picture is concerned I will zap the missus the links to the high res ones...feel free to use any you wish as discussed.

The saw is now in the care of Royal Mail (Special Delivery as befits the saw)...although Annie did tell the lady that it was an "valuable antique saw"....so it least came over to her as a fine facsimile of your favourite period!

I did look in Simon Barley's book this evening when I had time at the section on dating open handles and I get your point now..this is valuable stuff for me...the nuances are quite subtle aren't they. I think I have old planes fairly nailed down but saw handles was a something I was "learning"!

For the interest of you and Pedder (and any other old saw fans)...the antique saw has "W.Taylor" in plane capitals on the back...

...but if you look really closely at the steel..there is an engraving in fine old script which says "G.Burridge"....which I noticed while taking the SKELTON SAW pictures! I take it this is the "very posh" original owner as there is no record in Barley.

Simon Barley shows this maker but no details are known...but there is also another W.Taylor in the USA...I'm pretty sure they're not related....any idea guys?

Cheers..

Jimi

 

[Peter Sefton]

I have been playing with one of Shanes saws this week, No 8 to be exact.

No doubt it is a beautiful hand made saw. I was using it dovetailing some 12mm Chestnut on this weeks beginners course. I hope to give it a fuller workout next week and set up some tests in line with the ones we judged the dovetail saws we reviewed for Nick Gibbs back in 2011.

I will post my thoughts once its been fully assessed in a few different timbers and thicknesses.

Cheers Peter

 

[condeesteso]

I saw the Skelton over at Jim's the other day. Very attractive and finely made indeed. Agreed nice to see a new maker in England (Yorkshire even =D> =D> ). I only saw it briefly but hadn't realised it's a rip/dovetail as it seems a fair bit bigger than Jim's TLT and my Gramercy.
If the pass-round is closed never mind, but if I could jump on the end please? I'd be very keen to try it.