Simple bookcase - advice please

[trumpetmonkey]

Yes, I think like me you are sometimes too kind for your own good! But then, there's more to life than money!

I also like to see things as an opportunity to learn. Still I am slowly starting to get more firm about what I charge - it's been a process of growing to realise what my work is worth, and gaining the confidence to say that's the price and if people walk away that's ok - and actually they don't very often. I mainly do general domestic joinery, door hanging etc.

I apprenticed for a year with another joiner, got £60 per day, which i later learnt is quite low even compared to a labourer. Depends who you speak to though.

When I went out on my own I charged £80 per day, then upped it to £100, now £120. I am learning that I need to account for all my costs, and when I look at them all they are quite considerable - ie tools, bits, blades etc, repairs, insurance, vehicle running costs, time taken doing quotes etc.

 

[big soft moose]

The bookcase was indeed a freebie. The wife's schools budget is approximately zero and she needed some new storage.

If I was charging for it, I'd have gone with £70 per day plus materials + consumeables. I was able to make this bookcase in a day.

I know this will seem really low compared to the professional rates but I'm still at the upper edge of the 'paying hobby / learning as I go' stage. I was taking one day off from work a week to work on things like this. I was making £60 per day from work so I figured I'd aim to match that until my speed/skills improved.

I still feel really awkward charging friends and family for my work. I recently made a desk and bench set for my mother in law to give to her grandson. She wanted me to charge her my normal rate as she knew I was being made redundant. I estimated a day and a half to complete it which, at £130 inc materials, was going to be way too much for what it was and what she could afford. In the end I went back on my 'don't compromise on time & effort' rule and did it as a gift, asking her to cover my costs for materials.

I look on 'freebies' like these as learning experiences. I now know what i would do differently, what techniques are quicker and what sort of quality I can turn out in a certain amount of time. Unfortunately it's a lot harder to make a living from free work. :roll: :lol:

i'd have said your day rate was too low , even for a hobby worker - on the rare occasions that i do paid woodwork I normally charge £150 per day on the basis that thats the ammount i'd be getting if i was doing chainsaw work or photography (the two other things ive been known to freelance at) - therefore I reckon thats what a day of my time is worth as i could be doing chainsaw work or photography otherwise.

my rule of thumb is if its for family or really good mates i do it for nowt, or for materials, everyone else pays the day rate (or a quote based on the day rate plus materials) or goes elsewhere - simples

 

[big soft moose]

Maple Veneer 18mm MDF (8' x 4' sheet) £50ish (from Arnold Lavers)
Miller Dowel kit £20
Iron on veneer £10
Glue and finishing £20
Labour £100

= £200 total

How does that sound?

I'd probably have forgotten the iron on edging and used hardwood lipping but otherwise thats looking okay (though using biscuits would work out more economical than miller dowels)

I know you didnt get the job but as a hypothetical exercise if you had how long would it have taken you to make ? I ask because £100 for labour looks awfully low - you also havent made any allowance for delivery, or for the overhead like workshop, power etc

 

[TEO]

I think I find pricing just about the hardest part of any job, I've no wish to rip people off but at the same time I want to come away with a modest profit and for clients to value what I've done for them.

To this end I always look to present the client with at least a couple of options. I assume that they know what they could get at Ikea or the like and what they would pay for that and then I try and identify what the real benefits of a fitted cabinet or bespoke piece would be to them, I ask a lot of questions.

Almost all of my clients come to me through personal recommendations and the fact that they know what I do and how much care I take means that I don't have to sell to them or at least I don't have to sell myself, it may be that I favour one particular option over another and so I may give that option a little extra shove.

I also look at it this way; I couldn't afford to employ me, certainly not often or for many days, while I'd love the time and money side of this to be no object, there's no way round the fact that I have to make a crust too, pay the bills etc. So, to ease my conscience, I make a judgement on the ability of the client to pay; what they can afford. So, Granny X who's really strapped but who really needs a ramp or a rail or some such will be slightly subsidised by New car Y who's only choice is fitted wardrobe over going out two or three nights in a particular week.

Some clients are now old friends and the fact that they've pulled me through hard times with work just when I needed it means that at other times they get first dibs and I'll go two miles extra rather than just one.

It's a bit of a mine field, I think that as long as you can look them In the eye at the end of a job, you leave the client happy with what they've got and you go home confident that you've done a good job, then you're doing ok.

Just as I was mulling over the OP I went over the pond and came across the following, as far as a technical guide to pricing goes, this is a good starting point.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/pricing-your-work/

Good luck and most of all congratulations, getting a commission is the sign that you're making good stuff.

Cheers,
T

 

[trumpetmonkey]

Thankyou all for responses, not checked in for a while.

When I gave the quote to the guy he said no, but his wife since came back to me to say they will go ahead, and with the slightly embellished version! I guess she understood it was a very reasonable price for a custom made item, since i'd given the breakdown of costs.

I'm on a bit of a high at the moment as I've had a few jobs come in, plus my tools bought with a grant have started to arrive and my workshop is beginning to take shape.

big soft moose, I know £100 is cheap, but much like Teo sayd I also vary my pricing depending on the situation, and this would be my first ever piece of furniture so it's an opportunity for me to practice too.

I hope to do it in a day. I will get the veneered mdf cut to the panel sizes on the big saw thing at Arnold Lavers (what is that type of saw called?). It's very simple then really. (Probably take longer than i expect anyway!)

bsm I agree £150 is a very fair day rate, and am aiming for that in the next few months as my experience grows. Currently I am basing quotes for general joinery work on £120 a day. Recent and upcoming jobs: making, painting and fitting timber garage doors; insulating and boarding a loft; building a fence.

Teo - I also picked up some good woodworking information on a recent trip to America, but hadn't seen that website before, thanks for the link it is a good addition to my mental directory of sources of advice.

The summing up of his pricing method:
'To sum up, here is my simple formula: materials cost (+10%) + (hourly rate x project hours)'

...is roughly the approach I take anyway, although I plan in terms of day and half day rates, not hours. But like him, and probably most of us, I tend to underestimate the time things involve!

i am learning better habits though. On my current job, building a new loadbearing floor above the ceiling joists in a loft; filling in with insulation; and boarding over - I am taking care, not rushing and thinking ahead. And I've found my care in laying out the joists, for example, is reaping dividends in time saved laying the chipoard flooring without having to cut the boards.

 

[peter99]

The one bit of advice I can give you from experience is don't break down your costs to the customer.

You either work a day rate for someone else in the trade or you give a price to the general public.

There are a myriad reasons as to why not but whenever you have a tight customer or a problem it will always come back to bite you in some way.

Just give your price for what they would like producing. Keep the breakdown to yourself.

 

[BradNaylor]

I think I find pricing just about the hardest part of any job, I've no wish to rip people off but at the same time I want to come away with a modest profit and for clients to value what I've done for them.

If the client agrees your price and then you do a good job for them then you cannot be 'ripping them off', whatever price you charge.

Any price that is agreed between two parties is by definition fair, otherwise the parties wouldn't agree to it!

A 'rip off' only occurs in a case of misrepresentation or fraud.

 

[BradNaylor]

The one bit of advice I can give you from experience is don't break down your costs to the customer.

You either work a day rate for someone else in the trade or you give a price to the general public.

There are a myriad reasons as to why not but whenever you have a tight customer or a problem it will always come back to bite you in some way.

Just give your price for what they would like producing. Keep the breakdown to yourself.

Good advice.

Never break down a price into materials, labour etc. Just quote for the finished piece of furniture.

My rule of thumb for jobs of this kind is to guess how long it is going to take me in total and quote on the basis of £250 per day, including materials.

For your bookcase I'd reckon on one and a bit days, so around £350.

 

[Doctor]

I think I find pricing just about the hardest part of any job, I've no wish to rip people off but at the same time I want to come away with a modest profit and for clients to value what I've done for them.

If the client agrees your price and then you do a good job for them then you cannot be 'ripping them off', whatever price you charge.

Any price that is agreed between two parties is by definition fair, otherwise the parties wouldn't agree to it!

A 'rip off' only occurs in a case of misrepresentation or fraud.

True, but if they tell people how much it cost and all replies are "what a rip off" then I think the client may feel ripped off.

 

[xy mosian]

When I started working for myself, general joiner/kitchen fitter occasional bathroom re-fit, I had the benefit of previously working as a production engineer. I very quickly realized that a good deal of time was spent chasing prices for quotes, these had to be done during time I should have been earning my living. Some of this happened even if the 'chase' was to the filing cabinet for a catalogue. To reduce this time I set up a spread sheet with the prices of any materials used, along with date of price and supplier. After a short period of time I could sit down and, after running through with quantities, work out materials cost very quickly. A quick check on the last price date to see it it might still be valid and we're off. If I found an old price I re-checked wherever possible, of course, but sometimes just upped the price by a few percent. Now all this didn't really make any more money for me, but it did release some free time and took away some of the looming aggro, of losing productive time to work out a quote.

If you already do this, sorry. Keep records of everything you make, keep careful track of your expected and actual production costs, particularly time. Next time you quote for something similar adjust accordingly.

HTH

xy

p.s. All said in an effort to help.

 

[BradNaylor]

When I started working for myself, general joiner/kitchen fitter occasional bathroom re-fit, I had the benefit of previously working as a production engineer. I very quickly realized that a good deal of time was spent chasing prices for quotes, these had to be done during time I should have been earning my living. Some of this happened even if the 'chase' was to the filing cabinet for a catalogue. To reduce this time I set up a spread sheet with the prices of any materials used, along with date of price and supplier. After a short period of time I could sit down and, after running through with quantities, work out materials cost very quickly. A quick check on the last price date to see it it might still be valid and we're off. If I found an old price I re-checked wherever possible, of course, but sometimes just upped the price by a few percent. Now all this didn't really make any more money for me, but it did release some free time and took away some of the looming aggro, of losing productive time to work out a quote.

If you already do this, sorry. Keep records of everything you make, keep careful track of your expected and actual production costs, particularly time. Next time you quote for something similar adjust accordingly.

HTH

xy

p.s. All said in an effort to help.

Alternatively,


Take a sharp intake of breath, chew thoughtfully on your pencil for a couple of minutes while working out how much these people might be prepared to pay...

:lol:

 

[Philton]

I think I find pricing just about the hardest part of any job

I agree, after setting up in business it took me several years to start making any decent money, largely due to under pricing jobs, I was always over optimistic about how long things took to make. I also now know the type of jobs that are profitable i.e. kitchens, bedrooms, built ins.

I work out pricing based on:

Price = Cost to make + profit

Cost to make = Labour + materials
Labour includes my income and overheads.

The amount of profit I add varies with each job and depends on:
Comparison with market price (compare with Ikea, furniture shops other makers etc)
also consider the added value in the quality or uniqueness of the product.
Risk involved ( using expensive timber, using new methods....)
How busy I am.
Possiblity of continued work or have I worked for customer before.


Cheers

Phil

 

[trumpetmonkey]

The one bit of advice I can give you from experience is don't break down your costs to the customer.

I see a few people agree with this, but please could you spell it out for me why??

I have received feedback that people like a breakdown so they understand the costs involved; and I also feel it is helpful, to be transparent.

Is the problem that people might start picking and choosing, asking you to remove so and so a cost etc?

xy mosian, thaks for the advice re: keeping a spreadsheet of costs. I have had in mind to do this though haven't got round to it yet. What I do do is for each job I quote on, I write out the details on a sheet of paper on a clipboard, then keep these pieces of paper in transparent pockets in a folder to easy refer back to. I then add any other details in the course of the job, like materials costs etc. i figure then I can just get that file out and refer back to previous jobs. I also keep various catalogues to hand - screwfix, wickes, B&Q etc. As a shorthand approach I often refer to B&Q material prices, knowing I can probably get them cheaper at a trade place but then at least I shouldn't end up underpricing.

 

[frugal]

There was an article in F&C a couple of months ago that dealt with how to price up a job. I have no idea what the professionals amongst us thought of it, but from an amateurs point of view it looked fairly comprehensive.

As to not breaking the price down, whenever I get a quote from a supplier I insist that it has a breakdown of the work. It may be that there is a different attitude in IT, but I signed off on about £1.5m of work over the past year that would have been about £1.8m if we had not had a detailed breakdown with the number of man days for each activity so that we could challenge the quotes.

 

[big soft moose]

As to not breaking the price down, whenever I get a quote from a supplier I insist that it has a breakdown of the work. It may be that there is a different attitude in IT, but I signed off on about £1.5m of work over the past year that would have been about £1.8m if we had not had a detailed breakdown with the number of man days for each activity so that we could challenge the quotes.

I agree I always insist on a full breakdown from contractors to be sure they aren't inflating materials cost or ripping us off.

that said furniture in the retail market is a bit different - if the client goes to ikea or next or wherever they don't get a breakdown so why should they expect one from a craftsman.

 

[SBJ]

As to not breaking the price down, whenever I get a quote from a supplier I insist that it has a breakdown of the work. It may be that there is a different attitude in IT, but I signed off on about £1.5m of work over the past year that would have been about £1.8m if we had not had a detailed breakdown with the number of man days for each activity so that we could challenge the quotes.

From my point of view, the breakdown of the quote is of no concern to the customer. If you are pricing on a job, you wouldn't supply the materails cost, the labour charge, fixings etc, and to be honest, if you did ask I would probably walk away from the job. There are times when someone will ask for a price for finishing as they might want to do it themselves, but that's about the limit.

 

[peter99]

Once a customer asks me to break down the price of a job I know exactly what type of customer I'm dealing with - not my type. I politely say no thanks and let someone else do it for them.

I've been in business a long time. If my price isn't good enough for what's on the piece of paper describing the work then the distrust is already there. I'd rather not bother with it and would rather deal with someone who is nice in life.

The few times I have (in the distant past) the customer always continued to be a pain, I learn't a long time ago, don't break it down.

If you want to that's fine. It's not for me. And we're not talking multi millions here or long contracts, just straight forward 1 off jobs from 1 day to 1 month to complete.

Just my experience, everyones different.

Peter

 

[chippy1970]

The last customer I had that asked for a full breakdown of costs on his kitchen went on to try to short change me when he payed me. Then a year later I made the mistake of doing work for him again and guess what when he payed me it was short again. I dont get many customers like that in fact he's the only one.

I dont mind breaking down labour and materials and thats as far as I go.

 

[trumpetmonkey]

if the client goes to ikea or next or wherever they don't get a breakdown so why should they expect one from a craftsman.

Well, furniture from ikea is considerably cheaper than a custom piece, and I think that's exactly why giving a breakdown can be helpful. Once a customer understands the real costs of component materials and how long it takes me to make then the apparently high cost actually makes sense to them.

But I guess that just gives away the type of customer I'm dealing with at the moment - people who don't know the value of craftsmanship. I suppose the ideal thing is to build a more discerning customer base who are willing to pay, but as I'm only just starting out I haven't found many of them yet.