Shed workshop questions

[M_Chavez]

Hi All,

I would be grateful for some advice about setting up a workshop in a shed.

I am looking to get myself a large-ish shed (20x10ft perhaps) for a workshop (wife keeps insisting I move out of the spare room) to use for leatherworking, hombrewing and various diy jobs, so ideally I'd like a damp proof shed with reasonable sound & temperature insulation. Being damp free is particularly important so I don't damage the leather and I don't get my tools rusty (a lot of them are custom-made imports from the US, so worth a few ££).

Can some more experienced forum members please help me with the following:

1) Which shed to buy? There seems to be a selection of shed workshops online for anything from £300 to £3000. Any recommendations for a good sturdy value for money shed? I'm hoping to get the whole workshop for under £2k but can spend a bit more if it will make a difference. Ideally, I'd get the outer shell and then do all the insulation myself.

2) What's the best way to damp proof the workshop?

3) I found some threads on insulating the walls, but I would still welcome any recommendations on what material to use and how to insulate the roof and the floor.

4) Any soundproofing recommendations?

Thank you very much for your help,

Chavez.

 

[Higon]

Welcome!

I'm sure if you asked 5 members, you'd get 6 different opinions! :lol: however, I've just helped a friend build one of these in his garden, he's using it as his workshop;
http://www.gardenbuildingsdirect.co.uk/Log-Cabins/BillyOh-Traditional-Log-Cabin-Workshop/22588

I was impressed with the build quality, looks like it came through a CNC. It went up easy and fast. What you might wish to do is add more insulation, we screwed down another layer of flooring over the standard but he was using lathes and other heavy stuff in it. There's lots of options to play with including 44mm thick walls.. That will help to reduce noise and improve insulation.. We used celotex on the walls and ceiling.

I'm sure others can advise on the other questions, but for insulation? The cheapest at the moment, (just before xmas and for a different application) was 50 mm rock wool type stuff, depends on other factors and personal preferences....

I'd also be tempted to build a wooden wall box to keep the leather / tools inside and use a low wattage incandescent buib to keep them cosy.

enjoy.

 

[M_Chavez]

Thanks Higon!

What would you advise to use to keep the rain & dampness away?

 

[Wildman]

Moving to Death valley in the USA, the hottest driest place on earth, hee hee
Failing that no matter what insulation you put in the humidity inside the workshop will be the same as that outside so I guess heating will be required.

 

[Higon]

Not sure I understand fully where or what you are thinking of here..

Rain? on the roof, I always use standard roof felt, tape and the stubby nails who's name escapes me.. but with cold bitumen paint underneath, thats for sheds etc. either of them on their own can be next to useless, but together I find they work well. With most of these choices, if ultimately depends on the skill it is installed with... I was generous with the bitumen and it dripped inside one of the sheds that just had boards for a roof, having said that, that was 7 years ago and no sign of any problems yet... and there's been a bit of wind and rain in that time.

Dampness can be a pain, but that is as much on location / weather conditions I guess... prevention being better than cure... I've got sheds on old sleepers, not brilliant in a rural scenario as rats moved in underneath! Concrete pad? Better but more £££ (theres another thread talking about concrete v pea gravel you may have seen).

I've got a double floored shed, with some heavy stuff in it, that is sitting on old pallets without problems, but no, not ideal. Depends so much on what your preferences are, the shape size and weight of the item in question and how much you want to spend..

Oh, the billy log workshop thing is on sleepers too but don't know I'd do it that way again... I've got 3 sheds on sleepers and too much aggro with the rats. Probably try getting the shed higher next time, perhaps try the paving slabs route. Either way, some sort of DPM between the shed and the bit touching the ground is probably a good idea..

None of them have had any problems with damp but then they are not in Scotland either!

 

[Hemsby]

Dehumidifier :idea:

Final step, they work wonders =D>

 

[M_Chavez]

Thanks again!

I've spoken to a couple local shed builders and one of them suggested putting the shed on a wooden frame to avoid having to put a concrete base in. If I understand correctly that's the same as the sleepers approach?
Seems to be the cheapest option but I'm not sure how long the wood will last if it's in contact with damp ground though.
By the way, how long would you expect a shed to last? About 10 years?

Don't think rats will be a problem as there are about 10 cats in the street so if mine is too fat and lazy to hunt them, the others will most likely get rid of them.

I was hoping of sealing the shed on the inside with something like "tyvex" or "Protect A1" and putting a layer of bitumen-based membrane liquid (seems to be cheap at wickes)
Maybe even coat all the walls and roof with it...

PS anyone used the plastic ProBase shed frames?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If you keep it off the ground make sure there is room for a terrier or a cat to get under it, or you may well have yourself a rat sanctuary.

 

[Higon]

Wooden frame will work, got one shed set up on that.. it was hard work though, a lot more than using sleepers. lol.. eg. Roughy level the ground... dig in about 4-6 inches, layer of sand used to level some breeze blocks accurately, then wood frame sits on the breeze blocks with some off cuts of the roofing felt between the wood and the breeze blocks. That must have been 5 years ago at least... If you go that route, be picky about the levels of the breeze blocks, or it will creak and groan as you walk across it! I left it a couple of days to settle before laying the floor. yep I suppose it could be considered the same approach as sleepers... Which ever way I've done it, there's always been varying amounts of digging, humping heavy stuff and levelling to be done.

A shed will last as long as you look after it.. These get an annual dose of water based 'whatever is cheapest' in the sales at easter with a backpack pump! (20 liters a time!).

There's 3 cats here that are great at the small stuff, rabbits, rodents, voles etc. but they don't seem to like the ratus... too much like hard work!

Wickes was where I got the bitumen stuff from, good stuff. I put it on with the help of a flame gun. Goes on a lot easier. (Before the elf and safety police jump into the thread, I had a grown up helping me)

Don't know that I'd bother with the bitumen on the walls, (not tried that) I try and keep the weather outside, outside as it were... and the tyvex / Protect A1... should do that without a problem.

I took some pics of the sheds during construction, I'll try and find them.

 

[graduate_owner]

I bought a 12 x 18 shed from Malvern Timber (advertising on ebay) and it cost about £1200 delivered and erected, but no floor (£90 extra). One side door and two wider doors as a garage door. It has a frame of 3 x 2 (before planing) and 18mm timber for cladding and roof, all tanalised. No chipboard, ply or OSB so it is quite sturdy. However the felt on the roof was just staples in place, and it leaked just about from day one of rain. The windows are glass in a rebate, held in place by beading - no sealant. So while the structure is good, the final job was not really satisfactory for a workshop. Also the side cladding did not go to the roof so there was a 4" gap on both sides (easily filled, but more work). Since then I have filled the gaps and clad the roof in box profile sheeting (another £200 or so) so now it is watertight. Overall it was worth the money but did not come up to scratch as it was. They do a range of sizes, so might be worth a call. There are plenty of other such firms advertising there, but this is the one I happened to choose and overall I was not disappointed (not too disappointed anyway). At least it s solidly built. Much better than those garden sheds with 1" x 1" frame and see through cladding.

K

 

[M_Chavez]

I've done some more reading and came up with a little plan (attached).

Base:
As I'm going to landscape the garden anyway, I'll end up with a pile of old paving slabs that I now intend to use for a base. Any suggestions on how to bed them?
Is geo textile under the shed a good idea or a recipe for a flood?

Wall thickness:
I can get 21mm walls quite easily but anything thicker than that will cost a lot more. Are 21mm walls good enough?

Frame:
By default local sheds come with a 2x2 frame. Is there any benefit in upgrading to 3x2 (especially if I intend to have an airflow gap - see below)?

Air Circulation:
In Mike's Shed thread he suggests leaving a gap for air to circulate between the outer shell and the insulation/inner shell.
If I buy the outer shell, then I will be able to add on the inner shell on the inside (i.e. cover the inside of walls with building paper leaving a 2in gap between paper and wood, screw a second 2x2 frame onto the existing studs, fill the gap with insulation, layer of waterproof membrane, board up with osb). I'll add some insect mesh to keep the creepy crawlies away.
Is there significant advantage in such structure?

Windows:
Local sheds tend to come with just a piece of glass sealed with silicone for windows. Would there be any benefit in doing
improvised double-glazing by adding another layer of glass with sealant? I'm happy with fixed windows as I can always open the door to let some fresh air in.

Thank you for your help - this forum is great for complete shed newbies like me!

 

[artie]

but for insulation? The cheapest at the moment, (just before xmas and for a different application) was 50 mm rock wool type stuff

Was that on a roll.?

 

[Higon]

Other than the two sheds I've scratch built, 4 bought / built by someone else, all the others have been bought from ebay, not new ones either! First step: Dismantle your shed.

You've got me thinking about the next one now, something around 7m x 4m... I've narrowed down to 3; either the billy type mentioned above, fast and easy, but size might not be big enough. Scratch build it, exactly what I want but it takes time lots of time! But the one that sounds most promising is to adapt a field shelter! Corduline roof, T&G walls, Steel chassis... delivered and assembled. All I need to do then is insulate the inside, celotex tent type thing, fit a set of double doors, add some joists and lay a floor... Very quick. no digging.. at least not by me

In answer to the questions you asked I would probably suggest (other opinions are available

Bed the slabs on sand.

Geo textile under the shed? to stop weeds growing? it should be dark enough for nothing to grow. Used geotex under the first one, didn't bother after that. (but the rats will appreciate you supplying the bedding material! lol)

In the drawing you have the top paving slab wrapped in 1200 gauge plastic? As previously mentioned, offcuts of roofing felt have proved to be more than adequate for the sunny southern climate

21mm walls? To my mind, the thicker the walls the less insulation needed for a given temperature(?) compare the costs make the call?

3x2 v 2x2? If you get a lot of wind then I guess it does. Used both, the 3x2 I use on bigger sheds (10' x 8'+).

I've not read the thread about leaving an air gap between the outer shell and inner insulation but I cant say I've tried it, would want to try it or that it makes any sense to me. it sounds like an awful lot of work for somewhat limited benefits in my applications ? I can think of more downsides than advantages... but as I said, I've not read the thread.

I'd definitely go with improving the glazing. Have a ferret in the skip of the local double glazing replacement company! I pulled a 900x900 double glazed unit, removed it from the UvPC frame and fastened it to the inside of a crappy standard window. instant triple glazing, well, 2.5 glazing. Screwing the brackets holding it to the walls mean that for the summer weekend, I can remove it easily.

As you can perhaps tell, the sheds (12 at current count) are built, bought or adapted to perform a specific task. Their construction and bases may have evolved, but they don't have any elements that haven't earned their keep or cause unnecessary work as it were.

I don't have a requirement for keeping hides safe and cosy for example, but rather than spend precious resources on keeping a large volume at a specific atmospheric condition, I'd make the area only as big as it needs to be and then condition that climate. I've done this with my metrology kit. Cordoning off a part of the workshop with a large wooden cupboard / small room type arrangement, (insulated with air gaps if required), would be far cheaper to run, easier to manage than trying to do that for the entire workshop when you're not going to be in it more than you will be in it. then there's the dehumidifier too! decisions, decisions...

[EDIT]
Just had a look at the shed thread mentioned. WOW! well, there are sheds and there are sheds! lol, I would call that an out building or extension! Its better built than my house is! I would suggest that as with any plans, copy all the details, not just some of them.

 

[Higon]

but for insulation? The cheapest at the moment, (just before xmas and for a different application) was 50 mm rock wool type stuff

Was that on a roll.?

Yes, I think it was. One of the chains had it on offer.. wickes/ BQ / TP etc. IIRC There was some issue in the reviews I read about the size of the roll being different to the standard joist spacing in the UK, perhaps why they were trying to shift it.

 

[Higon]

just been shopping... again!

Here's that insulation I referred to previously, reduced again from £17. (8.2 Sq.m.) Now 1.70 per sq.m.

 

[gnomeo]

Hello There

Well I was in the same position my self where I wanted a good strong workshop and as we all do went on line and ended up with sore eyes!
At first I was price driven a saw what are called Billy O sheds and workshops. They where very cheap so much so I ordered one straight away. A total load of fire wood is all I can describe it as. The framework was no more than 1 inch thick, I just sent it back the next day.
Although I live in Birmingham my friend who lives in Liverpool recommended City Centre Sheds who she bought her workshop from.
The web site has a selection of workshops with different cladding.
They do deliver and fit it, I ended up paying £150 extra on top of the price quoted for them to deliver and put it up.
It's going to be a job in itself finding a good workshop insulated and and fitted for £2000 for sure, you may get one of those cheap Billy Bob things and insulate it yourself but that would only be a shed with a bit of insulation.
I insulated my building with air tech which I bought online and used hardboard to line it. That did take a lot of time and was very fiddly, so I know why suppliers charge so much to do it!

Good hunting!

 

[woodpig]

I bought a 5m x 3m cabin similar to the one linked earlier. The roof and floor are insulated but the walls aren't. The timbers for the walls are 44mm thick. It warms up in winter quite quickly with a fan heater and it's not been too hot in summer. The windows are double glazed and the door has a sealing strip round it. I've had no problems with dampness at all so far.

 

[M_Chavez]

Gents, I thought I'd thank you all for your advice (better late than never!).
Your advice was very helpful and I have been enjoying the workshop for the past year and a half.