Sharpening. I know its controversial but......

[Grahamshed]

I need a decent set of chisels, and a plane ( or several ?) but there is really no point in buying them until I have the ability to sharpen them and keep them sharp.That's where I come to a dead halt. There are so many sharpening systems out there, and they are all so flipping expensive, and so much hype....
What do I really need ?
And how much does getting stuff sharp rely on good eyesight ?


And who is going to buy the popcorn ?

 

[Hardwood66]

Get a tormec or similar product there so simple to use you would have to be a dunce to get it wrong just make sure you read the instructions

 

[Jacob]

Nobody needs a "set" of chisels - they aren't like mechanics' socket sets where you need one of every size.
So I'd start with just two or three, to match whatever you are trying to do. Perhaps 1", 3/4", 1/2"? Bevelled or firmer. They can be different brands and even have different coloured handles. :shock:
If you are starting out sharpening I'd stick to tried, tested and cheapest i.e. double sided oil stone.
No you don't need good eyesight, though it helps. You can do a lot by feel, in the dark even. You can feel where the burr is and if it extends over the whole edge, and you can feel when it is gone.

 

[speeder1987]

I've been using the scary sharp system from workshop heaven, allows me to get a sharp edge. Also not hugely expensive because I don't get as much chance to work as I'd like.

Though its not great for re grinding the primary bevel, for that I got the pink sigma stone

But you will need to decide whether your using a jig or freehand. I use the richard Kelly no. 2 guide, but I'm not a huge fan of it to be honest .....

Hope that helps

John

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

 

[rich.h]

Personally I would spend some time learning how to use a waterstone by hand. Buy a cheap combination stone from ebay or such. Get a cheap couple of carbon steel chisels and knives. This way you can learn the correct technique without worry of ruining expensive equipment, and to begin with you can be sure of making alot of mistakes and spending more time with wet and dry paper than actual sharpening. The other thing I can suggest is a set of diamond stones (the cheap yellow, red, blue backs). Also a coulpe of files for reprofiling.

The actual method can vary as much as the number of systems around so look at a few different ones and practice as much as possible. Eventually you will get a knack for one of them that gives you the best results, then you can think about buying quality steel and a decent full set of stones. After that throw away any disposable razors you own as they will be blunt in comparison.

 

[Anima]

I'm just starting on the sharpening journey.
I bought 4 water stones (220, 1000, 3000, 8000) on here for a very a good price and bought a honing jig off eBay for £5.

My chisels and planes are now very sharp.
I was told that you have to spend a lot of money to get decent diamond stones (DMT) which is why I went for water. I didn't even consider oil for some reason.

Mathematically speaking all methods should produce the same result : a 25deg bevel followed by 30deg.

One thing to note with water stones is you will have to flatten them occasionly. Saying that I'm more than happy with the results.

 

[Jelly]

I'd also suggest you get a double sided oilstone and learn to sharpen by hand, it won't take too much practice to get the knack of it... Remember: slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

The beauty of hand sharpening for me is being able to feel where high spots* are from the differential in friction accross the tools contact patch with the stone, and equally being able to apply a little more pressure to each side to develop a camber on plane irons, without needing to really look.

As for the chisels themselves, I'd personaly get one large (say 1" to 1½") one small (⅛" or thereabouts) and two intermediate sizes that are closely suited to the majority of the work you intend to do... You cover all eventualities then without buying too many, you could potentially afford to get nicer ones then if you wish too...

Mathematically speaking all methods should produce the same result : a 25deg bevel followed by 30deg.

I disagree, all methods should repeatably bevel the chisel to produce a sharp edge; getting an exact angle is not critical for most tasks, nor is achiving a double bevel... the classic double bevel, flat 25º, flat 30º, Jason's 25º convex bevel, and hollow grinding all achieve prefectly good results in use for their respective proponents.

Sharpening discusions can get awful dogmatic, which misses the big, glaring issue that we're all going to have our little idiosyncrocies and quirks to our technique as it develops; half the problem for a beginner trying to learn about sharpening is that there are plenty of source saying exactly what you must do and not nearly enough sources with the common sense approach of "this is roughly what you're doing, now go do it for a while and make it work for you!".

*(unless you buy old tools, or repeatedly mangle your chisels; this should hopefully be a bit of a-non issue).

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Because waterstones are soft, you get used to using the sides for chisels and making sure that you use the ends of the stone and not just the middle - they go quite a while without flattening if you are careful

 

[srp]

Yes, get an oil stone. You'll need one anyway, even if you later get something like a Tormek. Lots of bolleaux talked about sharpening, and lots of so-called sharpening systems are, I bet, gathering dust under a bench mainly because there is no magic miracle wonder cure.
When you've learnt how to use an oil-stone you could possibly think about some sort of powered water stone like a Tormek, but I still use an oil stone if
a) I want an edge on something like a marking knife or a Stanley knife
b) I only have one or two tools to sharpen and I can't be bothered to mess about with water and jigs etc. (And the Tormek is the messiest thing ever created, water everywhere if you don't sit the whole thing in a big tray).
I use the Tormek if
a) I have to sharpen planer blades
b) It's time to sort out all the chisels and planes in my site box which tend to get a bit neglected
c) Before I start a proper cabinet making job, when I'll sharpen 2 planes, 1 scraper plane and 4 of my best chisels
d) I'm wearing a wet suit.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

I need a decent set of chisels, and a plane ( or several ?) but there is really no point in buying them until I have the ability to sharpen them and keep them sharp.That's where I come to a dead halt. There are so many sharpening systems out there, and they are all so flipping expensive, and so much hype....
What do I really need ?
And how much does getting stuff sharp rely on good eyesight ?

I used to think that I could get my Knives and chisels really sharp. But then I lashed out on a couple of nice Sharpton stones. And now my kitchen knives are unbelievably sharp. All of them can be used instead of a razor.

For my chisels I'm getting the Veritas honing guide mark II. Many respected woodworkers recommend using a honing guide and not trying to sharpen by hand.

I don't suggest this is what you should do but it is what I've done. It isn't a cheap solution but I think it's going to be a long-term one. Of course your mileage may vary.

 

[Jacob]

....... I didn't even consider oil for some reason.

It's just out of fashion. But much cleaner and cheaper than waterstones, no rust, lasts forever

Mathematically speaking all methods should produce the same result : a 25deg bevel followed by 30deg.

Only a 30º (ish) edge is needed, The bevel behind doesn't matter as long as it isn't horribly hollow ground, which is the worst option

 

[Jacob]

...... Many respected woodworkers recommend using a honing guide and not trying to sharpen by hand........

And many say the opposite. It's very recent this jig thing. I think it is going out of fashion again as more people take woodworking more seriously and get back to basics.

 

[UTMonkey]

I think the best advice I have read on this forum is, pick something and stick at it for 6 months.

Thats what I decided to do, my first efforts could never be regarded as something that cut like butter but it is definitely improving.

 

[RogerBoyle]

I need a decent set of chisels, and a plane ( or several ?) but there is really no point in buying them until I have the ability to sharpen them and keep them sharp.That's where I come to a dead halt. There are so many sharpening systems out there, and they are all so flipping expensive, and so much hype....
What do I really need ?
And how much does getting stuff sharp rely on good eyesight ?


And who is going to buy the popcorn ?

Mine is now in the Microwave LOL

When I started learning how to work wood one of the first jobs I had on a building site was how to sharpen chisels and Planes.. it was with a double sided oil Stone and it could take me hours to take a badly beaten 1" Chisel and sharpen it to a useable condition I used to hate doing it
but it did teach me several things
Do not let chisels get so bad before Sharpening them
How easy it is to get a good sharp usable edge and the importance of good quality tools bought separately rather than in sets or Packs

All you actually need is a combination stone, some oil and a half decent chisel and Practise and more practise and lets not forget the most important bit PRACTISE LOL .
What you will probably end up with though like 99% of the woodworking population is an assortment of jigs, Stones both oil and water as well as lapping plates etc etc and lets not forget about the various sharpening systems . Systems all having their own good and bad points.
Is it any wonder that one gets confused. Big pat on the back for the marketing men they have done their job well
To make the best choice for you try asking yourself the following
Do i like sharpening ??
Do I have to take it to scary sharp Levels or a good working level?? (there is a big difference in time with this question)
Do i really need all the chisels that you would get in an 8,10 or more chisel set or would it suit me better to only buy the ones that i would usually use and buy others as and when the need comes up.
and Do you really Like spending money ???????? :mrgreen:

For what it's worth i have a two sets of marples chisels (the blue handle and the other the yellow/red) that i use on site work both 1/4 ,1/2, 3/4 and 1" they are sharpened with a primary bevel of 25 degrees done with a belt sander running 60 grit and finished on a combination stone to a 30 degree honed bevel takes less than 3 mins to resharpen if I need to
In my work shop I have a similar set up except I tend to do finer work and as such I tend to sharpen my chisels and planes nearer the scarey sharp level using the worksharp WS2000 and or the tormek.( The tormek is now only used for my Lathe tools and as I seldom use the lathe it could be classed as a waste of Money LOL)

I have more chisels at the 1/2 and 3/4 inch than any other chisel as they are the ones that I prefer to use.

I also have some chisels and planes where the bevels are greater and lower than the 25/30 degree standard combination but that is for a different argument/debate LOL :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[Richard T]

+ several about good eyesight.

It really comes down to feeling the burr, then feeling that it is gone. It can't be seen with the very best eyesight anyway so have no worries there.

 

[Grahamshed]

Odd. I made a second post here earlier that seems to have disappeared
The gist of it was that there are a good lot of suggestions here ( just as I knew there would be ) for keeeping tools sharp.
I have several chisels I can practice on but most of them are pretty manky, been used for opening tins, nibbled ends, you know the sort of thing.

So, that raises 3 more questions.
1...What is the difference between water and oil stones ( I have been looking at this http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-axminster-stone-pond-with-3-waterstones-prod783413/
and this http://www.axminster.co.uk/stanley-stanley-combination-oilstone-sharpening-kit-prod31764/ )
2... What would you use to get a basic edge back that is capable of being sharpened ?
3... If water / oil stones are good for chisels and planes would you still use them for turning tools ?

 

[RogerBoyle]

1. water stones use water but they also have a variety of shapes and grits to them that the oils stones don't
But oil stones tend to stay flatter longer than a water stone as they are harder
( I personally would opt for the oilstone of the two but that may not suit you )
2. Grinder or belt sander taking care not to over heat the steel
3. yes for some tools like skew chisels and parting tools but this is where things like the tormek and other slow speed wet stones with buffing wheels come into their own

Roger

 

[Jacob]

+ several about good eyesight.

It really comes down to feeling the burr, then feeling that it is gone. It can't be seen with the very best eyesight anyway so have no worries there.

Yes you can do it in the dark if you have to.
On the other hand if I'm grinding on a belt sander, anything needing precision such as v tools, I find it useful to get up very close, wearing goggles to avoid the sparks, but I've got very good near sight which makes it easier. rubbish long distance so I normally wear varifocals.

 

[Jacob]

Doesn't seem that controversial after all - oil stones are it!
Whatever the weaknesses of oil stones they have one big advantage* in that you can use a lot of force. Freehand that is, not so easy with a jig. Sheer force speeds things up no end, sharpening can be energetic. Compare and contrast the limp and feeble way you have to use scary sharp i.e. drawing the tool backwards, carefully, so as not to catch the expensive paper

*PS two big advantages - the other being that they last for life. Unlike the thin scattering on a diamond plate or a paper sheet of abrasive, oil stones have abrasive particles deep and all the way through.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, but I don't like oilstones, and prefer just about anything else.