Sharpening a Crosscut Saw

[John15]

I've just received a Paul Sellers Masterclass video on sharpening a new Spear and Jackson 7 tpi crosscut saw. I've watched a lot of videos on this subject in the past by various people but this one is so clearly done with excellent camera work and commentary that I can fully see and understand what's going on.

John

 

[bugbear]

Does he show how to use and control traditional fleam angles, or is it just his own rip-teeth-does-all method?

BugBear

 

[John15]

BB,

Yes, he sharpens with a fleam angle of 65 degrees and as a guide he marks the angle on the saw clamp, also a sheet of A4 with the angle drawn on it.
I've tried to post the video link but it won't let me - subscription only I think.

John

 

[deema]

The method I use is to cut a curf in an small piece of wood and sit it on the blade, with a protractor draw a line with the fleam you need. Stick, nail, etc a stick on the line to provide a good reference. Align you file with the stick. Move scrap off wood down the saw as you go. Turn the blade around and repeat, ensuring you reverse the angle of the stick. It's much easier to see and get a consistent angle than anything else I've seen or tried.

 

[pedder]

https://paulsellers.com/2016/04/crosscu ... t-youtube/

What a relief he put away the magnets. I wonder how he does know that he files not to deep. I can't see the flats.

12:00 that is what is called cows and calvs.

Just recognized. Paul Sellers files into the tooth breast. Most saw filers are filing out of the tooth breast.
Execpt the ones, who are filing both teeth from one side. (Andrew Lunn, Marv Werner, me....)


Cheers
Pedder

 

[D_W]

https://paulsellers.com/2016/04/crosscut-saw-sharpening-direct-youtube/

What a relief he put away the magnets. I wonder how he does know that he files not to deep. I can't see the flats.

12:00 that is what is called cows and calvs.

Cheers
Pedder

I might be a cynic, but I don't believe he'd file the teeth 5 times and have very even teeth. It's not necessary for them to be perfect, but they shouldn't be too too bad and they do need to all be the same height.

it looks when he's using the saw like it rasps in pine.

 

[pedder]

I must have missed the point when he joints the teeth. That is essential for every saw sharpening. The jointing leaves little flkats on the teeth. When you file as long as the flats vanishe, all teeth are sharp and all teeth cut.

So the video may be good to understand what is crosscut, but it is not goood to learn saw sharpening.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[D_W]

Pedder, I think if one is sharpening a saw professionally and cosmetics are very important, jointing is essential.

I would imagine that someone sharpening saws for use would not necessarily need to do it every time, though.

The thing that's not so instructive about the video (and I admit I didn't watch every second) is that it is a saw with already well formed teeth (like machine done), and after the filing, they are not as well done.

I don't file perfect teeth, either, admittedly, and I don't joint every saw every sharpening as it's not necessary to keep relatively good height if you have already good teeth and you're just trying to freshen them up.

But crosscut saw filing is one of the most difficult things, it seems, to communicate to people because ...well, I don't know why. I like to err on teeth that are on the aggressive side with respect to fleam because it doesn't seem to affect the quality of cut, and I try to concentrate on filing the front of the tooth rather than the back, and then touch up as needed - that keeps me from rolling the file and creating one set of teeth that has a total angle of about 70 degrees and another set on the other side of the saw with 50 or something. It also makes it easier to file from toward the direction that a saw is set on both sets of teeth rather than into the tooth where a file really doesn't cut that well unless tilted down.

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people who file a saw crosscut will never stick it out to learn to do it well. I'd be willing to also bet that many put too much fleam on a set of teeth and end up with a saw that rasps rather than cutting - leaving a user to have to apply pressure to keep the saw in a cut.

 

[bugbear]

But crosscut saw filing is one of the most difficult things, it seems, to communicate to people because ...well, I don't know why. I like to err on teeth that are on the aggressive side with respect to fleam because it doesn't seem to affect the quality of cut, and I try to concentrate on filing the front of the tooth rather than the back, and then touch up as needed - that keeps me from rolling the file and creating one set of teeth that has a total angle of about 70 degrees and another set on the other side of the saw with 50 or something. It also makes it easier to file from toward the direction that a saw is set on both sets of teeth rather than into the tooth where a file really doesn't cut that well unless tilted down.

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people who file a saw crosscut will never stick it out to learn to do it well. I'd be willing to also bet that many put too much fleam on a set of teeth and end up with a saw that rasps rather than cutting - leaving a user to have to apply pressure to keep the saw in a cut.

When you say "fleam" do you mean it as per fig 5 of this page (a helpful and clear diagram) ?

http://blackburntools.com/articles/saw- ... index.html

BugBear

 

[D_W]

But crosscut saw filing is one of the most difficult things, it seems, to communicate to people because ...well, I don't know why. I like to err on teeth that are on the aggressive side with respect to fleam because it doesn't seem to affect the quality of cut, and I try to concentrate on filing the front of the tooth rather than the back, and then touch up as needed - that keeps me from rolling the file and creating one set of teeth that has a total angle of about 70 degrees and another set on the other side of the saw with 50 or something. It also makes it easier to file from toward the direction that a saw is set on both sets of teeth rather than into the tooth where a file really doesn't cut that well unless tilted down.

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people who file a saw crosscut will never stick it out to learn to do it well. I'd be willing to also bet that many put too much fleam on a set of teeth and end up with a saw that rasps rather than cutting - leaving a user to have to apply pressure to keep the saw in a cut.

When you say "fleam" do you mean it as per fig 5 of this page (a helpful and clear diagram) ?

http://blackburntools.com/articles/saw- ... index.html

BugBear

Yes. Most saws that I see that are improperly sharpened have too much fleam (many have too much set, but maybe they were being used on wet wood on a construction site). Too much fleam for a purpose makes a saw rasp and it rides on top of the cut instead of biting in under its own weight only.

One of the old disston guides is very clear about this - filing so as to prevent rasping, but it isn't otherwise discussed very much. The saving thing about less fleam is that most people beginning probably do most of their damage when they're adding fleam to a fresh rip-filed set of teeth, so if they add less of it, then they'll do less damage.

 

[Jacob]

I must have missed the point when he joints the teeth. That is essential for every saw sharpening. .....

I always put it off as long as possible. An uneven line, hollow etc. is OK as long as the set is the same each side so it'll cut straight.
So I'll probably sharpen a saw 10 or more times before topping. If you do it carefully it'll go longer. And your saw lasts longer as you aren't removing so much metal.

 

[swagman]

I am with Pedder on the importance of jointing.

Stewie;

 

[pedder]

I must have missed the point when he joints the teeth. That is essential for every saw sharpening. .....

I always put it off as long as possible. An uneven line, hollow etc. is OK as long as the set is the same each side so it'll cut straight.
So I'll probably sharpen a saw 10 or more times before topping. If you do it carefully it'll go longer. And your saw lasts longer as you aren't removing so much metal.

Jacob, use a finer file for jointing (topping) or a hard sharpening stone. You don't need big flats . The smallest flat ist good. Like shown in my picture.

Sellers counts his strokes in the video. 2 strokes per gullet. But the teeth in the middle of the saw are heavier used than the teeth at toe and heel. If you file them with the same amount, you'll ned up with a hollow toothline.

But that is not my point of critic. The point is to show all the way and not just parts of it, if you make a teaching video.

And don't lift the file on the back stroke. It'll make the filing better by 3 times and don't harm the file at all.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[mouppe]

I've never found it necessary to joint the teeth every time I sharpen, nor set them if the saw is cutting well. But each to their own. But I also wouldn't be too hard on Paul Sellers' video- he's just setting out the basics, at some point I think you have to develop your own technique and explore things for yourself.

 

[mouppe]

The method I use is to cut a curf in an small piece of wood and sit it on the blade, with a protractor draw a line with the fleam you need. Stick, nail, etc a stick on the line to provide a good reference. Align you file with the stick. Move scrap off wood down the saw as you go. Turn the blade around and repeat, ensuring you reverse the angle of the stick. It's much easier to see and get a consistent angle than anything else I've seen or tried.

I set a bevel square to the angle and slide it parallel to the saw as I file.

 

[Jacob]

.....
Sellers counts his strokes in the video. 2 strokes per gullet. But the teeth in the middle of the saw are heavier used than the teeth at toe and heel. If you file them with the same amount, you'll ned up with a hollow toothline......r

True, but this is not a problem. If you sharpen without topping first you tend to correct this without thinking, by putting a bit more effort into the teeth nearer the toe, but a bit of a hollow doesn't affect the sawing action noticeably.

 

[bugbear]

But I also wouldn't be too hard on Paul Sellers' video- he's just setting out the basics, at some point I think you have to develop your own technique and explore things for yourself.

Personally, I find it quicker if someone just shows me the proper way, once and for all. Saves a lot of messing about.

I feel no need to express my personality via the medium of saw filing technique - I just want a nice sharp saw.

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The usually stated 'best practice' is to top and re-shape teeth every three or four sharpenings (or so - it's not that critical how many), or when the toothline starts to lose it's straightness. Thus, a normal tickle-up is as Paul Sellers demonstrates, but every so often, top lightly to ensure toothline is straight (or to preserve any breasting of the toothline), reshape, and then reset and resharpen. If this is done reasonably frequently, the amount of reshaping needed will be minimal, so the whole job won't take much more than a quickie sharpening, but it will keep the saw in best condition.

I've seen the results of not bothering to top at all on saws I've bought secondhand. As Jacob says, the toothline becomes hollow, and in bad cases, so hollow that topping completely removes the teeth from the toe and heel ends. Refurbishing a saw that's been allowed to deteriorate that much can take some hours, not just a few minutes.

 

[bugbear]

I've seen the results of not bothering to top at all on saws I've bought secondhand. Tthe toothline becomes hollow, and in bad cases, so hollow that topping completely removes the teeth from the toe and heel ends.

I've seen sagittas pf 1" and more; these are normally accompanied by very uneven teeth. I categorise this as "bad sharpening"

Hollows deeper than the teeth are depressingly much more common.

Until I have a straight toothline, I just joint until vestigial gullets still - just - remain, file for little more than tooth spacing, and repeat. This rough work (c.f. Peddar) can all be done from one side of the saw, and if your saw vise is long enough that you don't need to shuffle the saw along, the work can go quite quickly.

BugBear

 

[swagman]

Repeated on a regular basis; It should take you no more than 30 sec. to lightly joint the teeth before sharpening.